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Old 15 Apr 2004, 11:39 (Ref:940345)   #1
SNH
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SNH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Historic saloon racing in the UK

I see in Autosport this week that there were a number of historic saloons races last weekend. The HSRS Historics, Top Hat Saloons and Group One's in with the Alfa GTA's. Apart from these there is also the CTCRC Thunders, Pre-66s, 74s and 83s. There are also the JEC, JCC, MGCC, etc races. As most of these series/championships don't get full grids, wouldn't it make more sense to join them together? I realise that some of the regulations may be different, (not all though), but surely something could be done.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 12:06 (Ref:940369)   #2
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greenamex2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Isn't it amazing how many of these threads end up saying the same thing!!! At least this one got to the point straight away.

SNH - I think things are starting to improve (eg Thunders has merged with pre-83's) but you are right that there is a long way to go. Hopefully the clubs look at these and other forums and are taking notice.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 12:07 (Ref:940371)   #3
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Oops sorry, meant Pre-90's.

Never could count.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 16:25 (Ref:940615)   #4
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Well Steve just to go against the flow, it was anounced at Combe that next year there's going to be a series of "Top Hat" style one-hour races for 70's Group 1 Touring Cars.

And to take the MGCC. They run their own meetings mostly and generally have full grids. If they don't they merge them and run an "allcomers" race to make up the space on the bill.

As to Historics. I think you refer to pre 66. In which case until last year (as I've just found out), the CTCRC ran different regs to the HRSR. Now it appears they are running the same regs.

I can't comment on "our" club's attitude because it is something I'm giving serious thought to at the moment but I for one am looking forward to next year when I can play with my car in a grid full of "proper" Group 1 cars. Thanks to Julius T.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 23:06 (Ref:941006)   #5
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SNH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Pete - that Top Hat style race was the one I put on here at the start of the year. I also like the idea.
I know the MGCC do a good job, but maybe the clubs should at least work together. It seems to me that some clubs just want to go their own way and not think about either the members or the racing.....
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 04:22 (Ref:941114)   #6
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Well there's a lot of talk concerning the BRSCC on other threads.
I think the BARC has made a mistake this year by splitting/droping the Classic Package.
Look at grid sizes for the CTCRC. When did we suffer like that before?

Yet as far as Historics go, we are close if not the same as HRSR (as I recently found out) and we don't race with them and they don't race with us.

The MGCC does look after its competitors because they are a major source of the club'd income. Just like the HSCC.

The BRSCC and BARC have major "national" championships and as such look at the "clubman" as turnover. So we get lesser treatment.

But those are the two clubs that need to pay attention not the likes of 750 mc, HSCC or MGCC.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 07:52 (Ref:941222)   #7
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
historics are probably the only sector that for the most part do not suffer from small grids. Last weekend Donington had an HSCC HRSR round on Sunday and Top Hat Castle Combe on Monday. From my experience HSCC, Julius Thurgood, Gentlemen Drivers and BRDC do mostly ensure that they do not clash and where possible try and do the same meeting.

I think the main point is that historic racing is for the most part hobby racing and therefore drivers are not relying on sponsorship to make budget. In which case if the organisers put on a good meeting they will always get good grids.
Top Hat and Cloth Cap had reserves at Castle Combe and Gentlemen Drivers rounds are all over subsrcibed. HSCC and BRDC always mange to get good grids.
So as Peter says the organisers who think about what the competitor wants thrive the others struggle!
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:06 (Ref:941236)   #8
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I think you'll find the pre 66 races are very well subscribed, the Top Hats attract full grids, and reserves, the season opener at Donnington for the HRSR was as well, I'm hoping to do a CTCRC race at Brands in May . .. if they let me
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:35 (Ref:941261)   #9
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I've e mailed you the deets.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:40 (Ref:941267)   #10
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Originally posted by simon drabble
historics are probably the only sector that for the most part do not suffer from small grids. Last weekend Donington had an HSCC HRSR round on Sunday and Top Hat Castle Combe on Monday. From my experience HSCC, Julius Thurgood, Gentlemen Drivers and BRDC do mostly ensure that they do not clash and where possible try and do the same meeting.

So as Peter says the organisers who think about what the competitor wants thrive the others struggle!
Well it can be borne out by the differing grid sizes between the CTCRC so far this year and HRSR. We (Zef, you and me as I recall)were complaining that HRSR isn't really "historic" but they get a good turn out whilst the CTCRC seems to have been given the end of the stick this year.

Silverstone National, Rockingham and (with the greatest of respect) Mallory. Yet Donington and Combe can put on a big meeting. Its no wonder we are suffering.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 08:52 (Ref:941281)   #11
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
it will be very interesting to see how many cars the FIA round at Donington gets at eth May bank holiday meetng. This is a three day meeting which is ambitious by anyones standards. Sunday and Monday are purely FIA and Saturday all historic (BRDC, Gentlemen Drivers etc..)
As I siad above historic racers are hobbyists so they want fun and value. Castle Combe was a great meeting with lots spectators! It wasnt entirely historic but the modern series seem to be red flagged and the historics werent, maybe that is another reason for historics doing well, driving standards tend to be better?
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 11:05 (Ref:941385)   #12
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quite possibly Simon, if its not the standard them it most certainly is that people want to race properly AND take their car home on wheels . . . .

circuits must play a part, not just location of, but once you know them . . .I dont see Rockingham being a very attractive proposition in a 40 year old saloon !
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 11:26 (Ref:941416)   #13
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I've never raced at Rockingham but I agree with the point you make Joe.

Mallory Park is a good circuit for older cars, my point above was more about timing. A mid summer fixture there for historics would be so much better.

Oulton Park is tremendous and is there for the big meetings (Gold Cup) but you get no big promotion at Cadwell yet the viewing and racing is always good because of the circuit configuration.

Silverstone National is IMHO much better than the GP circuit. The MGCC gets to race there so why not hold a big Historics Festival where all clubs CTCRC (BARC), MGCC, HSCC get to tout their wares in a single arena?

Not sure about the suitabilty of Snetterton. Certainly it has history but the location (similar problem with Cadwell) and configuration doesn't really lend itself to "old car" racing.

So if we were to look at circuits alone it would be

Brands Indy
Silverstone National
Castle Combe
Mallory
Oulton Park (Island)
Croft

All of which have space for families and good viewing positions.

Add to the list based on circuit configuration

Cadwell (Needs facilities)
Pembrey great circuit poor facilities and little space

However there you have ideal circuits (excluded Donington due to cost) that lend themsellves to large "festival" style events.

Apologies to Knockhill because I have no experience.

So if someone was to put on an 8 event series of Historic and Classic weekends (to include S'Seaters) with a sort of "jewel in the crown" event in the middle on the Silverstone International circuit, it would do two things IMO. First it would attract all the cars that we don't see at the moment because they are entered into a fixed format and second, the publicity possibilites are that much greater beacuse you know what you are doing and the circuits can advertise well in advance.

Phew. You can tell I'm not too busy today.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 11:43 (Ref:941437)   #14
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
hopefully that is exactly what the BRDC Festival will become in years to come. Rather dissapointingly its only on the National circuit this year but I gather there is a distinct possibility of it moving to the GP if successful. This should then be more remeniscent of the Coys Historic.
I dont know how to move threads but shouldnt this be in the historic section??
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:06 (Ref:941463)   #15
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Well its not our thread. But yes it does seem to be turning into an "Historic" discussion.

But with respect to the BRDC, they do sometinmes appear elitist. They'll include the HRSR boys f'rinstance and leave the only club who were providing close-to-original historics out.

so I can see them inviting the HSCC which is a "sports car" club with a saloon car register and leaving out the CTCRC because of a "class" thing.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:25 (Ref:941486)   #16
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
hhmm not sure its elitism
in fact this year BRDC are twice the guest of HSCC (Brands Super Prix and Oulton Gold Cup). The only time BRDC have organised a saloon race they asked Julius to do it (the last "Coys" which was in fact "Nescafe"!!) but if they did get a "club" I think you are right they would use HSCC but mostly as I said they have been with them and they are both based at Silverstone so its easy to sort out.
I do agree though that its ironic as HSCC allow oversized engines and are therefore less historic
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:36 (Ref:941498)   #17
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The only time BRDC have organised a saloon race they asked Julius to do it ...........................I do agree though that its ironic as HSCC allow oversized engines and are therefore less historic
That's why I suggest it goes away from the BRDC (they own Silverstone so I'm not complaining per se) and its left to the individual clubs to provide the show. MGCC has 4 Classic or Historic championships, CTCRC can provide 3 (up to the 70's), HSCC, with the exception of the HRSR for reasons as discussed elsewhere, can provide at least four sportscar or single seater championships. So you see you have the potential to provide a great programme of diverse but still "Classic/Historic" racing for either a weekend or just one day. A bit more like a "Spa 6hrs" than a "Coys Festival" but the principle remains.

Throw in a one hour two-driver race for Sportscars and the same for Saloons/tourers and it gets really very attractive.

Maybe not 8 times per season but maybe three times picking a regional circuit for each and alternating it.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:45 (Ref:941507)   #18
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Oooh where are we going with this?

Julius T? Top Hat/Cloth Cap/70's Saloons, supported by sprint races for MGCC and HSCC and er............. Hmm.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:49 (Ref:941510)   #19
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
give him another year and you will probably have the "Julius Festival"!!! I personnally would add the BRDC Historic Sportscars, Orwell series and the Group 4 as well as Carol Spagg's Sports Prototype and then I reckon you have an awesome meeting
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 12:55 (Ref:941515)   #20
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Agreed but that's the Spa 6hrs!

We started off by talking about Historic Saloon racing and therefore the UK "club" thing.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 13:00 (Ref:941520)   #21
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
so that is why I like that meeting so much!!!
if each club was only allowed to put one race from their series forward I wonder what the race card would be....
track being Brands GP or Silverstone GP
you can tell I am as bored as you are!
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 13:02 (Ref:941523)   #22
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New thread!
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 15:21 (Ref:941684)   #23
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& there was me thinking that historic racing grids had gone down.....
Looks like it's all rosey.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 15:56 (Ref:941737)   #24
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Not at all. In fact look at the Mallory entry. The cars are around but the meetings aren't set up to attract them. I wouldn't mind betting that there are full grids for the Brtands Hatch Classic in May.
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Old 16 Apr 2004, 16:02 (Ref:941743)   #25
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SNH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
how many G1s are down for Mallory?
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