Ron Dennis At It Again

JeremySmith · 26 Sep 2005, 18:12 (Ref:1417185)

This really made me role my eyes. One would think that he would be more gracious.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34182

**Adam43** · 26 Sep 2005, 18:20 (Ref:1417189)

I saw the title, but decided to not give it the time of day. As it is pointless drivel from a useless source. What he is actually saying inthat article is that he believes his drivers are better. Which should be the more accurate headline. Not that Alonso is an unworthy champion.

He said on ITV's coverage, unprompted, that Alonso was a worthy champion.

Still he should have just said, they're all good drivers and Alonso is the world champion.

JeremySmith · 26 Sep 2005, 18:51 (Ref:1417220)

Would you like to close it then Adam? thank you in advance!

Mr V · 26 Sep 2005, 18:59 (Ref:1417227)

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

**Adam43** · 26 Sep 2005, 19:16 (Ref:1417248)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Would you like to close it then Adam? thank you in advance!

Not at all, it is open for discuss and as Mr V says everyone is entitled to their opinion (although how it is expressed does come under scrutiny here).

My opinion is that the article is worthless though!

JeremySmith · 26 Sep 2005, 19:30 (Ref:1417266)

Thank's Adam. Its never my intention to start a "Flame War" I do not understand how the press get away with this stuff...

**Adam43** · 26 Sep 2005, 19:33 (Ref:1417274)

I don't really want to turn this into a press thread. However

The article is a good example of "get away with this stuff", because they aren't getting away with anything. They are just chosing to emphasis one part more than another. They haven't lied as such, but it is annoying. Every article is amazing and wow, when the world isn't like that!

Anyway. Attempt to go back to the thread:

While Ron isn't the most tactful person in the world I don't think he has gone out of his way to put Alonso down.

sunny.traveller · 26 Sep 2005, 20:06 (Ref:1417305)

Absolutely! If Kimi or J-P had been in a position to be "driving percentages" and this had enabled them to win the WDC I'm sure the PR people at Mclaren would be emphasising this part.

BootsOntheSide · 26 Sep 2005, 21:07 (Ref:1417354)

If he has the best driver, and they didn't win the title, he needs to look at the performance of his team more than anything else. So many mistakes have been made by McLaren this year, primarily the engines but including almost everything (including both drivers, occasionally), that there's a lot of room for improvement next year. He may take comfort in the fact that the second half of 1997 was similar in many ways.

Kempi · 26 Sep 2005, 21:26 (Ref:1417373)

To me, driving percentages is just what a champion is supposed to do when he is in a situation just like Alonso was. Driving flat out and smashing it (as happened in Montreal) is not really the smartest thing to do if not needed.

Hazard · 26 Sep 2005, 21:46 (Ref:1417384)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I don't really want to turn this into a press thread. However

The article is a good example of "get away with this stuff", because they aren't getting away with anything. They are just chosing to emphasis one part more than another. They haven't lied as such, but it is annoying. Every article is amazing and wow, when the world isn't like that!

Anyway. Attempt to go back to the thread:

While Ron isn't the most tactful person in the world I don't think he has gone out of his way to put Alonso down.

Certainly since the first thing he's saying is that Alonso has beaten his drivers in inferior machinery

**John Turner** · 26 Sep 2005, 22:14 (Ref:1417402)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kempi

To me, driving percentages is just what a champion is supposed to do when he is in a situation just like Alonso was. Driving flat out and smashing it (as happened in Montreal) is not really the smartest thing to do if not needed.

Absolutely right! Normally, I think that the driver with most GP wins in a season should be the WDC but the points system militates against this. The fact is that Alonso capitalised on an early season advantage and then HAD to play the percentage game against a faster car. The fact that he did so successfully, and got so close to the faster car on a number of occasions suggests that not only was there more to come from him but also that he is probably every bit as good as KR and JPM. Ron Dennis is a racer; of course he is sore at the fact that neither of his drivers is WDC. I think we should put Ron's words into that context and not get carried away by them. Fernando Alonso is as worthy a champion as we have seen in many years. A few derogatory words by Ron Dennis does not change that.

Flat12-Aircool · 26 Sep 2005, 23:45 (Ref:1417458)

Check out this other rant by Ron Dennis, apparently all the Backmarkers are to blame for why Maclaren lost the championship.

Sour grapes in abundance as Ron fails to mention that Alonso has to overtake back markers also.

It's the same for all the front runners...

Ron's sour grapes...

**Adam43** · 26 Sep 2005, 23:55 (Ref:1417464)

That is not what he is saying at all. He is talking about the constructors championship and what may happen in the future. He is not talking about any specific incident in the quotes on your link.

He is saying that the backmaker could effect the constructors championship and if it does then it will be frustrating. Which they could and it would be.

He is mindfull of the 8 points lost in Spa (10 relative to Renault) because of a coming together with a backmarker. As the constructors is so close (only 2 points) then something like that could make the difference.

EHS · 26 Sep 2005, 23:56 (Ref:1417465)

As much as I am a fan of Raikkonen and Montoya, the fact is that Alonso is the best driver this year, even when taking Kimi's "bad luck" and Montoyas motorcycle accidents into account.

He qualified better overall, finished higher overall, scored clearly more points, and deserves to be world champion. He was the best driver this year.

To paraphrase from the movie Putney Swope: "Like it or leave it, Putney is the new chairman of the board, and I will defend that mistake with my life."

Flat12-Aircool · 27 Sep 2005, 01:31 (Ref:1417503)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

That is not what he is saying at all. He is talking about the constructors championship and what may happen in the future. He is not talking about any specific incident in the quotes on your link.

Your wrong, he's talking about both championships and regardless of how bad he thinks its been this season IMO its not as bad as it used to be in the past. Plus the point still remains that it's the same for both teams, Maclaren & Renault.

The real difference is that after overtaking a backmarker Alonso doesn't swerve back across right into the braking zone of the other car like Senior Montoya likes to do. Perhaps Ron Dennis ought to say something about his own drivers mistakes for a change.

mac · 27 Sep 2005, 03:27 (Ref:1417536)

It's certainly not good sportsmanship from Ron. Now is not the time to be making such statements regarding abilities of drivers - it is ridiculously poor timing and the comments of a sore loser.

Patrick Head's response was a much more classy and gracious way to go about it.

And the backmarker talk is pure drivel - if Alonso had been taken out instead of Montoya at Spa, we would not be hearing from him.

Perhaps Ron should be lamenting the lack of smart drivers at his team for the Montoya incidents at Turkey and Spa were most certainly avoidable.

I would also say that the McLaren's mechanical dramas early in the season have had more to do with deciding the championship than a couple of backmarkers not moving over - perhaps try looking in your own garage, Ron.

Yes, the media has built it up a touch, but I do not even read full articles anymore - I only read the quotes in stories.

And the quotes in the two stories linked indicate some pretty high-grade whingeing.

Glen · 27 Sep 2005, 08:45 (Ref:1417677)

Part of the reason Ron has something to say about that is because he is covering his own shame at failing to produce a reliable car for his two excellent drivers.

Nevertheless, what he says is still cr@p because the best drivers deliver maximum results with the hand they are dealt - if Kimi and Juan could learn from the maturity and intelligence shown by Fernando the results might be very different. Fernando has driven for podiums - well how about if Kimi changed that tyre and drove for a podium? How about if McLaren had put a bit more toughness into the car and sacrificed some speed - they could have scored eight or six points instead of none on several occasions.

**Adam43** · 27 Sep 2005, 09:13 (Ref:1417693)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Your wrong, he's talking about both championships

I don't own a wrong, I gave it so someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RD

If it costs us the constructors' championship, it is not particularly nice,

Sorry the above quote confused me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

and regardless of how bad he thinks its been this season IMO its not as bad as it used to be in the past.

I agree, but that doesn't mean Ron can't see it as an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Plus the point still remains that it's the same for both teams, Maclaren & Renault.

Are, but inherently it isn't. As a backmarker doesn't effect two drivers in the same way. That is not to say that Renault can't have the worse luck and that is the point Ron is making. It is random so it could make a difference either way. He says he would be frustrated if it lost them the championship and he would. Renault would be too, if it happened to them, but Ron can't speak for them.

He is clearly thinking about it because of two previous incidents involving Montoya. The first, in Turkey, was silly by Montoya. Although it seems that the second was Pizzonia being caught out off line on a wet line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glen

Part of the reason Ron has something to say about that is because he is covering his own shame at failing to produce a reliable car for his two excellent drivers.

True. Although because of that he needs everything to go right in the last few races. He is worried that something outside their control could get in the way.

And I agree with Glen's summary of the situation, although all decision may have worked out differently, but that is more for another thread.

Ron is Ron. We know what he is like. It takes a strong man to complain on an internet forum about Ron complaining!

I enjoy his presence and enjoy, when things go wrong, offering the verbal caption "Ron's pain" to the telly. I also like it when things go right because he enjoys it too.

Knowlesy · 27 Sep 2005, 12:22 (Ref:1417842)

Agreed.

Glen · 27 Sep 2005, 13:47 (Ref:1417922)

There's another RD gem in the news this afternoon - he's warning Alex Wurz and PDLR to be cautious about any team offering them a race drive, because they might get used and abused (recruited for what they know about McLaren and then dumped). My God! This man's conceit knows no ends - any driver will have full confidence that their race performances will keep their job safe, all they need is the contract to drive - which McLaern have not offered... Go for it guys, if you can get it.

Flat12-Aircool · 27 Sep 2005, 17:16 (Ref:1418087)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I don't own a wrong, I gave it so someone else.

Charlie says what?

You we're incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I agree, but that doesn't mean Ron can't see it as an issue.

Err it does actually, as we "agreed" Backmarkers have always been an issue and worse so in the past. So why bring it up now? It's just a whinge and sour grapes, pure and simple at losing the Drivers championship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Are, but inherently it isn't. As a backmarker doesn't effect two drivers in the same way.

It IS the same for both teams as you can make your own luck depending on how you approach the Backmarker situation. If you take the Montoya arrogant "get out of my way" policy then you are always going to leave yourself open to disaster. But the slightly more patient and deliberate style of Alonso will always bring you more Good luck than Bad.

Menelaos · 27 Sep 2005, 17:38 (Ref:1418101)

Ron Dennis is correct that we can't judge Alonso's speed based on this year's races except for a handful of them. However, one must acknowledge that Alonso was nearly perfect all year long and did exactly what he had to do. He would be stupid to do otherwise.

**Adam43** · 27 Sep 2005, 17:44 (Ref:1418105)

I was rather childishly referring to your quote where you meant to say "you're". Apologises.

The fact that something always been an issue doesn't mean it isn't a problem. That IS false logic.

And I am not saying that anything needs to be done about it rather that Ron doesn't need to be berated so much for bringing it up! Many people in F1 down the years have complained about backmarkers being a problem.

Yes you can drive to minimise the issues that backmarkers bring, but sometimes the situation IS out of your control.

However all that wasn't really what I was objecting to. Back to the article and the reason I disagreed with your post. Ron does not blame the loss of the championship on backmarkers: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/4281806.stm
The opening line is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbc

McLaren boss Ron Dennis says slow backmarkers cost Kimi Raikkonen the world championship...

but that is editorial not Ron. He never says such a thing in the article.

Interestingly Reuters don't use that editorial in their article on the same story: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...archived=False
They also contain quotes from Norbert and he is the more forceful on the issue than Ron. In this article, like the other, the words from Dennis and Haug say they are both worried that backmarkers could effect the championship. Neither blame backmarkers for the loss of the driver's championship. Although such incidents have clearly brought it to the top of their mind.

At best it is open to interpretation and no one is totally incorrect and wrong.

foreversideways · 27 Sep 2005, 18:02 (Ref:1418112)

Poor old Ron and Haug.... They just can't stand it can they. It's any bodies fault but theirs. Face it, they had the fastest car but it was unrelaible and could not finish some of the races. Their development was to agressive and it cost them dear. As for Alonso: how canny and proffesional is he, he knew what he had to do and did it perfectly.

Ron will need to remind himself of his own favourite phrase. 2nd is the 1st of the loosers.

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