Are we allowed to discuss the marketplace? - YES (JT)

[simon drabble]

without trying to advertise your own car? I look at another forum (no not that one) and they have a general marketplace thread where they discuss cars on the market and it is fascinating.
I would like to kick off by saying I presume you have seen Remus is on the market. Now is it my imagination or has this been on before quite recently?
If we cant talk about this feel free to delete

[zefarelly]

pi**ed-on heads isn't really comparable to this up market establishment surely

Maybe you could be the moderator for 'Drabbles dribbles' . . .a thread full of 'tasty mowtas' for sale

[terence]

Thinking of dipping a toe in Simon?,how about your recent result,did you get anywhere near where you hoped?

[simon drabble]

I was actually talking about a forum on early 911's!
Terry it looks like I am keeping the Merlyn so this thread idea was purely idle banter but in common with many on here I am always interested as to what is on the market

[john ruston]

Remus was up for about 700K previously and he may be lucky if Euro holds present levels which it may not.Don't even think about States.market is dead.

[Tim Falce]

What's Remus?
BTW, good idea for a thread Mr D.

[simon drabble]

It is the ex Bira car but as the most raced car and possibly one of the more famous cars (which regularly wins) I am surprised it is that "cheap" and I do clearly mean in context to a world where Cobra's with less strong history make more...
I was surprised it didn't sell last time - just shows how little I know!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

What's Remus?
BTW, good idea for a thread Mr D.

It's an E.R.A Tim.

[john ruston]

Single Seat Race cars are not the thing to own if you are one of these people who see their own cars as investments rather than toys.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

It is the ex Bira car but as the most raced car and possibly one of the more famous cars (which regularly wins) I am surprised it is that "cheap" and I do clearly mean in context to a world where Cobra's with less strong history make more...
I was surprised it didn't sell last time - just shows how little I know!

Originally Posted by terence bower

It's an E.R.A Tim.

Thanks for the info, uncle Eric phoned me and told me shortly after I posted and told me what it is. I was surprised about the price as well but as he pointed out, in the true evolution of racing cars there is probably only 2 or 3 left now.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

without trying to advertise your own car? I look at another forum (no not that one) and they have a general marketplace thread where they discuss cars on the market and it is fascinating.
I would like to kick off by saying I presume you have seen Remus is on the market. Now is it my imagination or has this been on before quite recently?
If we cant talk about this feel free to delete

I'm happy to.

I can share that I was extremely happy with the price I got for my tweaked but road legal Griffith 400. I benefitted from the weakness of the pound as it went to a wealthy American living in Milan but I actually made a 20%+ profit since 2006 if you remove the exchange rate movement.

As a result I have been able to 'invest' in a lightweight E type roadster - I can't see the market for such cars going much lower than it is at present. I never thought I would be able to afford such a car and I guess to a degree I'm speculating on the market picking up over the next 24 or 48 months and hoping to have some fun with it in the meantime.

Doesn't seem to be much movement in the £20k-£50 market to me though.

Discuss.....

[John Turner]

Just for the record I have no problem with discussion about historic racing cars that are coming on the market. In fact, I have often thought of starting just such a thread mentioning some of those for sale which appear in mags such as Motorsport and Octane. That's not carte blanche for owners or advertisers to start drawing attention to the cars they have for sale; such posts will be removed. It's for us to decide which cars we wish to discuss!!

Remus (ERA R5B) has a full page advert in the latest Octane (the March issue - ridiculous!) and it certainly is one of the 'stand out' cars on the market at the moment. In fact, Duncan Hamilton & Co, who are selling it, also have a Porsche 936 and an Alfa 33TT/3 for sale. Gary Pearson is selling Jaguar XJR-9 chassis 688, another iconic car, and Historic Classics have an ex Group 44 Jaguar XJR-5 for sale as well as a couple of Porsche 962s. JD Classics have a C-type - chassis XKC 015 for sale, so anyone who has come into a substantial fortune who is also a Jaguar fanatic could have a field day! In Motorsport, Speedmaster have a number of interesting cars for sale including a 1934 Alfa 6C, a Chevron B16 (an original at £190K?) and the very unusual Attila Chevrolet, and I see a Lola T70 MkIII GT SL73/130 (ex Taki Racing) which I'm sure was at the Autosport show is for sale by Clive Robinson. This is rare because most of the T70s have the later 3B bodywork but aesthetically, I've always preferred the earlier shape. Down the scale, Nick Whale has an FIA MGB but at almost £50K that must surely be at the very top end for these popular cars; and I see that Dan Cox's LC is for sale at £38.5K in this week's Autosport.

[john ruston]

Best one is the Porsche 356 Carrera 2 GS that was later turned into a GT .
The difference between the price it sold for at R and M London sale and what it is being offered for today.There are some bargains. Suppose the virtual doubling in price in a couple of months is not a bad margin for person who saw the possibilities if it sells .Very Cheap in the Sale and I should have bought it.

That Attila has been on the Market for years.

The Chevrons are interesting in the fact that the real ones seem to, B 8,16,19, actually sell for up to 240K GPB despite the influx of pretend cars.Can't see this lasting

Think you have some time left before ,as they say,there will be a correction in European market if currency rates stay as now .This is already happening in States and next weeks Scottsdale Sales will be a measure of the market.Should Euro deteriorate against pound values will fall by at least that percentage

Certain cars are valued higher because of what they can do,A car that is acceptable in MM,Goodwood,Monaco or LMC has a substancial premium added.

No other events effect a cars price.

[ASDS]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Certain cars are valued higher because of what they can do,A car that is acceptable in MM,Goodwood,Monaco or LMC has a substancial premium added.

No other events effect a cars price.

Always puzzles me that people are so shallow - personally I would prefer a car with a proven history rather than a recreation.

Currently there are two Lancia Fulvia Zagatos for sale. One has FIA papers and is a cool £10,000.00 more than the one without the FIA paperwork!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Best one is the Porsche 356 Carrera 2 GS that was later turned into a GT .
The difference between the price it sold for at R and M London sale and what it is being offered for today.There are some bargains. Suppose the virtual doubling in price in a couple of months is not a bad margin for person who saw the possibilities if it sells .Very Cheap in the Sale and I should have bought it.

That Attila has been on the Market for years.

The Chevrons are interesting in the fact that the real ones seem to, B 8,16,19, actually sell for up to 240K GPB despite the influx of pretend cars.Can't see this lasting

Think you have some time left before ,as they say,there will be a correction in European market if currency rates stay as now .This is already happening in States and next weeks Scottsdale Sales will be a measure of the market.Should Euro deteriorate against pound values will fall by at least that percentage

Certain cars are valued higher because of what they can do,A car that is acceptable in MM,Goodwood,Monaco or LMC has a substancial premium added.

No other events effect a cars price.

The one other thing that affects value is popularity of the race series - 70s DFV F1 cars are making very high prices at the moment (some incredible prices).
Same with the 2 litre sportscars they are very expensive at the moment as are things like Lotus Elevens.

Now that there are some decent events coming up for F3 cars all the cars that didn't sell for years have gone and it is very hard to find anything for sale at the moment.

But Can-Am cars and earlier F1 cars are relatively cheap - you can buy a tube framed Can-AM car for half the price of a Chevron, and there is (slightly) less chance of someone telling you the Can-Am car is a fake!
Even a monocoque Can-Am car won't cost much more than a Chevron and the running costs will probably be lower.

You can buy a great 50s F1 car for the price of the better Cosworth kit-cars at the moment. And there are some real bargains to be had in later F1 cars.

But judging the market price with single seaters is particularly difficult since auction prices (which are the only ones that tend to be reported) seem to be around half that of private sales, which presumably reflects the lower number of potential buyers for a single seater.

Peter
p.s. I'm always amazed how low ERA prices are, a long time ago a friend sold one for a customer for around 250k at which point another owner said if you can get anything like that for mine you can sell it as well. For comparison around that time a Riley Sprite road car made about 65k.
But the other pre-war grand prix cars like the Delage (and the Talbot that Bonhams are auctioning today) don't make huge money either.

[john ruston]

There is a substancial difference, as there should be, in value of Pretend Cars to those with continuous history.

Always buy the best available to you within your price range.

[john ruston]

Good Riley Sprite Road car would now be 80-100K GBP?

Sprite Race car with full History 200-300K GBP.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by John Turner

That's not carte blanche for owners or advertisers to start drawing attention to the cars they have for sale; such posts will be removed. It's for us to decide which cars we wish to discuss!!

Unless the owner is willing to give Tenths 5%

[John Turner]

Indeed!

[simon drabble]

it is interesting that auctions always seem to throw up bargains when it comes to race cars, whether that is because everyone assumes they have a mechanical problem and therefore the seller doesn't want it tested I dont know...

The MGB Nick Whale is selling does seem "fully priced" but then so does the Lord Hesketh 911 even with the James Hunt connection he is selling. Maybe this is where the market is heading as he is not going to price himself out of trades.

I am also surprised by the steep prices being asked for the Merlyn Mk6's on the market - having said that I would be delighted if they achieve anything close to the asking price!

Of the current sports racers for sale the Lola Mk1 seems good value at a mere £125k when compared to the Eleven's with weak history that are also being marketed.

John is right about the premium cars eligible for Goodwood, Monaco and LMC meetings.

I cannot help feel there is an inflation in the current prices that is unsustainable. Mind you we have all been saying that for sveral years and it seems to continue.
As a comparison it looks like TVR Grantura's are now fetching what I paid for my Merlyn 5 years ago!

911 2.0 '65 cars are an interesting case - there seems to be confusion in the market pricing, Nigel Winchester's car is up at a "reasonable" 45k from memory yet Duel and others are valuing theirs at around £100k. Even if Nigel's needed some work on it that is stil a very large price discrepency!

John T thanks for letting this thread run - I know it is on the edge of what we are allowed to discuss but I am finding it an interesting insight as to where and what fellow "racers" are thinkng. Certainly a good reason for putting off doing my tax return for a few hours!

[terence]

Not having looked at Octane for quite some time,I have no idea as to what car Nick is trying sell,at that figure I would assume it not to be a 'works' car? There are two MGAs on the market,one was a works back up LM car,the other is the ex Rivers Fletcher car,both on the market at £98k Wishful thinking on the vendors side? perhaps but usually the cars with 'names' attached do sell at higher premiums.I think that this time of year,'our' market is historicly slow although I know of another B and a Grantura that are just about to change owners.We should wait until next month to see if any proper movement starts to take place I think.
And yes,good idea Simon,could be one of the better threads.

[simon drabble]

Terry what happened to that MGA that was on EBay? I mean the one with an important history (the details escape me now but I think it was a development and then "works" car).

I recall the mags picked up on it at the time and it was taken off EBay. It was, from memory of the commentary at the time, a genuinely important car.

Whilst race cars with history are collecting justifiable premiums it is worth reflecting on the fact that pre Coy's etc they actually sold at a discount to their road going concours peers. However there must be a price differential at which people will start to feel they will get more use out of their car if it is the road version and at that point they will start playing catch up - the Lotus Cortina that sold at auction the other day for £38k must be an example of that...

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

it is interesting that auctions always seem to throw up bargains when it comes to race cars, whether that is because everyone assumes they have a mechanical problem and therefore the seller doesn't want it tested I dont know...

The MGB Nick Whale is selling does seem "fully priced" but then so does the Lord Hesketh 911 even with the James Hunt connection he is selling. Maybe this is where the market is heading as he is not going to price himself out of trades.

I am also surprised by the steep prices being asked for the Merlyn Mk6's on the market - having said that I would be delighted if they achieve anything close to the asking price!

Of the current sports racers for sale the Lola Mk1 seems good value at a mere £125k when compared to the Eleven's with weak history that are also being marketed.

John is right about the premium cars eligible for Goodwood, Monaco and LMC meetings.

I cannot help feel there is an inflation in the current prices that is unsustainable. Mind you we have all been saying that for sveral years and it seems to continue.
As a comparison it looks like TVR Grantura's are now fetching what I paid for my Merlyn 5 years ago!

911 2.0 '65 cars are an interesting case - there seems to be confusion in the market pricing, Nigel Winchester's car is up at a "reasonable" 45k from memory yet Duel and others are valuing theirs at around £100k. Even if Nigel's needed some work on it that is stil a very large price discrepency!

John T thanks for letting this thread run - I know it is on the edge of what we are allowed to discuss but I am finding it an interesting insight as to where and what fellow "racers" are thinkng. Certainly a good reason for putting off doing my tax return for a few hours!

Definitely much better to buy 1 of 30odd Lola Mark1s than 1 of hundreds of Lotus Elevens for a similar price.
And given the Lola is a quicker car I'm amazed that so many of them stay on the market for so long - of course buying a race winning car is a problem if you can't drive as well as the previous owner, it is hard to blame the car.
Apparently Lotus 17 prices are now taking off as a consequence, they were greatly undervalued for a long time.

A friend sold his Lola Mark 1 around 20 years ago for what they are asking these days (he even turned the buyer down when he first appeared with the briefcase full of cash!) - that wouldn't have been a great investment!!

As John Ruston says history is everything - a 'works' Mini Cooper makes five times the price of the identical car but without the story.
Personally I'd buy something like a Merlyn (or more likely an F1 car) rather than a works Mini but I'm sure the Mini will always be easier to sell.

Whether a famous owner makes as much difference as a racing history is unlikely, but it must make it easier to sell than one without any claim to fame.
The Hesketh/Hunt 911 is dear, but it is also RHD which makes it less common and there are lightweight 911 RSs that have made 250 grand so it isn't much more than those (but it is the less desirable year?).
I'm sure Nick Whale is asking as much as he dares and I guess he'd listen to offers on his prices.

Hopefully though it isn't going back to the days when all the Ferrari dealers would agree amongst themselves to push up the price on one model, except for one who's car would then sell because it was much better value than the others...

You could make perfect replicas of every one of the Ferrari GTOs for less than the cost of buying one original and the replicas could have almost as many original Ferrari components... but you'd have no history and no invite to the GTO club.

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Terry what happened to that MGA that was on EBay? I mean the one with an important history (the details escape me now but I think it was a development and then "works" car).

I recall the mags picked up on it at the time and it was taken off EBay. It was, from memory of the commentary at the time, a genuinely important car.

Whilst race cars with history are collecting justifiable premiums it is worth reflecting on the fact that pre Coy's etc they actually sold at a discount to their road going concours peers. However there must be a price differential at which people will start to feel they will get more use out of their car if it is the road version and at that point they will start playing catch up - the Lotus Cortina that sold at auction the other day for £38k must be an example of that...

I think that the LM back up car could well be the same car Simon,judging by how you describe it.There was also the pseudo works B that had been on the Bay for quite sometime,that got pulled off after the bidding went up dramaticly but wen no further,I think it remains unsold,rightly so from what I'm told by someone who knows about these things.
LCs seem to be quite an odd one as far as asking prices are concerned,I heard of one[really nice,prepped for but not raced as yet] being sold for sixteen K!, The seller must have been very desparate,the car was worth double that as the shell was completely original and a lot of money had been spent.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Not having looked at Octane for quite some time,I have no idea as to what car Nick is trying sell,at that figure I would assume it not to be a 'works' car?

I thought it was the 'Windmill & Lewis' car, but has gone from the website, so maybe sold?