[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Flo aus N]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You are looking at this wrongly. Energy density is not an issue for lithium ion battery, power density is! The hybrid system needs to be charged in a very short period of time.

http://ev.sae.org/article/10599 gives the following numbers for the A123 battery pack in the electric Drayson Lola.
That means an energy density of 60 kWh * 3.6 / 300 kg = 0.7 MJ/kg for that battery technology.

Again using the Drayson battery pack as example.
That means a power density of 633 kW / 300 kg = 2.11 kW/kg for that battery technology.

Power density is the main reason why Toyota went for supercapacitors. The electric motor in the TS030 is 300 hp = 221 kW. A lithium ion battery would have to weigh more than 100 kg.

Sorry. I was not able to read the full datas. I thought that they would have an higher power density. I was looking at Of course you are right and theese numbers make clear, why the supercapacitors have a way better power density plus the fact that power and capacity density of a battery pack get lower, especially when it is ran 30 hous on the limit. Peugeot had quite a few problems with them, opting to route their system back. And of course, they had only 120kw instead of almost 230 kw which they Toyota System produces (at least!!).

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Just one exhaust hole... it means the car will probably be fitted with a 4-in line turbocharged engine, and displacement will be 1.8-2.2 litres. Smaller engine means lower weight and more space in the chassis to place hybrid system. This choice is to reduce the weight of the car, to fit the battery package as a ballast, placing it in the best way to lower the centre of gravity of the car as much as possible.
I think this choice can be the right one, to have a very well balanced car saving weight as much as possible.
Petrol engine is lighter than diesel one, so Porsche could be further advantaged with a 4-in line in confront of Audi and maybe Toyota (assuming they will preserve their 3.4 V6 engine).

I would refrain from drawing any definite conclusion regarding the likely nature of the engine at this stage. The position of the single exhaust outlet is more likely due to the changes in the regulations which forbid blown diffusers and define limitation as regards the position of the exhaust outlet(s) (see article 3.4 of the 2014 rules). In particular, under the new rules, exhaust outlet(s) cannot be located within 300mm of the trailing edge of the rear diffuser, which implies that a central exhaust outlet like the one that was used on the 2011-2012 R18 is not possible any more under the new rules. In addition, the exhaust outlet(s) must be visible when seen from above or the side.

Considering that the rules also impose the mandatory "shark's" fin on the engine cover, it is probably not possible or impractical to locate a single exhaust outlet on the upper side of the rear bodywork in a central position.

In other words, it is well possible that the off-center location of the exhaust outlet visible on the picture is mainly due to the regulation changes.

In addition, I struggle to understand the relevance of a four-cylinder engine for Porsche. "There is a race car in every Porsche" they say. Is a four-cylinder engine consistent with this philosophy ?

"Small engine" does not necessary mean a four-cylinder engine. I am more inclined to believe that the engine may be a small-displacement V6 engine or the like. This at least seems to be more consistent with Porsche's philosophy.

Time will tell.

[The Badger]

I wonder will heat have any adverse effect on that fin , like set it onfire so it burns off . then we can possibly have a good lookin P1 !!!

[Maelochs]

I've read rumors Toyota was increasing the displacement, going for a bigger, lower-revving V8.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

In addition, I struggle to understand the relevance of a four-cylinder engine for Porsche. "There is a race car in every Porsche" they say. Is a four-cylinder engine consistent with this philosophy ?

If they're gonna do a sub-Boxster class of car, it certainly is. And probably the small engine will be used by Volkswagen (and Audi!) too so I can see the logic behind going this engine route.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I've read rumors Toyota was increasing the displacement, going for a bigger, lower-revving V8.

>> http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=2313

[avvelenamento]

Just rumors for now, some time after LM they said that would be used again the 3.4 V8, some time later here is it the 5.0 rumor. Whatever is the truth, is strange that toyota is not considering to use the 2014 super gt 2.0 L4 turbo or some modified fuel flow version.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

In other words, it is well possible that the off-center location of the exhaust outlet visible on the picture is mainly due to the regulation changes.

In addition, I struggle to understand the relevance of a four-cylinder engine for Porsche. "There is a race car in every Porsche" they say. Is a four-cylinder engine consistent with this philosophy ?

"Small engine" does not necessary mean a four-cylinder engine. I am more inclined to believe that the engine may be a small-displacement V6 engine or the like. This at least seems to be more consistent with Porsche's philosophy.

Time will tell.

It may be, of course. These are just speculations!
To be honest, I would like much more a V6 engine, than a 4-in line! I hope to see a 2.2 V6 turbocharged engine. We have to wait, but 4-in line hypothesis has been launched by several motorsport magazines. I've read something about on Autosprint. The journalist gave for sure the news, but I do not completely agree with him. I think Porsche will unveil engine details as late as possible.
But I ask to myself if there's a spy-game in VAG home between Porsche and Audi men...
From what I see, Porsche aim will be to win Le Mans since its first attempt. I don't think they've planned to wait at least three years before to get the highest step of the podium (the famous "three years rule").
This doesn't mean they will win since the first time... but they seem to be very hungry!
All this inner rivalry is the prelude to a wonderful three challenge, with Toyota searching for a revenge.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by vincegail

If they're gonna do a sub-Boxster class of car, it certainly is. And probably the small engine will be used by Volkswagen (and Audi!) too so I can see the logic behind going this engine route.

I understand and see the logic, but that would probably be a "major" shift of Porsche's current car philosophy. Now, I trust that everything is possible since diesel-powered Porsche cars are on the roads...

I still bet on a six-cylinder engine, with a preference for a small-displacement (2l or less) mono-turbo V6 engine

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I would refrain from drawing any definite conclusion regarding the likely nature of the engine at this stage. The position of the single exhaust outlet is more likely due to the changes in the regulations which forbid blown diffusers and define limitation as regards the position of the exhaust outlet(s) (see article 3.4 of the 2014 rules). In particular, under the new rules, exhaust outlet(s) cannot be located within 300mm of the trailing edge of the rear diffuser, which implies that a central exhaust outlet like the one that was used on the 2011-2012 R18 is not possible any more under the new rules. In addition, the exhaust outlet(s) must be visible when seen from above or the side.

Considering that the rules also impose the mandatory "shark's" fin on the engine cover, it is probably not possible or impractical to locate a single exhaust outlet on the upper side of the rear bodywork in a central position.

In other words, it is well possible that the off-center location of the exhaust outlet visible on the picture is mainly due to the regulation changes.

In addition, I struggle to understand the relevance of a four-cylinder engine for Porsche. "There is a race car in every Porsche" they say. Is a four-cylinder engine consistent with this philosophy ?

"Small engine" does not necessary mean a four-cylinder engine. I am more inclined to believe that the engine may be a small-displacement V6 engine or the like. This at least seems to be more consistent with Porsche's philosophy.

Time will tell.

You make some excellent points, but I just want to add that there is a lot of noise about 4 Cylinder turbo's being used almost across the entire model range. Whether this actually materializes or not remains to be seen, but Porsche feels itself under enormous pressure from the greens to go all eco.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I wonder will heat have any adverse effect on that fin , like set it onfire so it burns off . then we can possibly have a good lookin P1 !!!

Oh Please let that happen!! Goodbye fin!

[avvelenamento]

lol, hope they won't paint white the fin or just after 30 minutes will be blackened dirt

[Gingers4Justice]

Yeah, we don't like the fin. But too much could be made of it.

I compare the fins to the huge airboxes of the 1970s. Yeah, they didn't "belong" on the Porsche but they were very much of their time and there's something about the 936 that's iconic...even though in many ways, the airbox was hideous, it's stood the test of time to kind of look right.

[deggis]

I have a better idea how to get rid of the fin. They will have to consult military industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...j6DQ856U#t=140

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by deggis

I have a better idea how to get rid of the fin. They will have to consult military industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...j6DQ856U#t=140

Ahahahahahah! Fantastic idea!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I wonder will heat have any adverse effect on that fin , like set it onfire so it burns off . then we can possibly have a good lookin P1 !!!

I'm going to start calling you David Soul.......

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I wonder will heat have any adverse effect on that fin , like set it onfire so it burns off . then we can possibly have a good lookin P1 !!!

I'm going to start calling you David Soul.......

David 'Finless' Soul, that is........

[dxk1]

They should paint the fin to look like a shark fin and then bring out the old Freisinger livery of teeth for the front of the car and they can look like they're eating up the competition. If you have to have it, put the fin to a good use I say.

DK

[Simmi]

I don't really have a massive issue with the fins. They become the norm and you get used to them.

But last night I was looking back at my shots from the Silverstone 1000km in 2010. And you can't help but feel a twinge.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

They should paint the fin to look like a shark fin and then bring out the old Freisinger livery of teeth for the front of the car and they can look like they're eating up the competition. If you have to have it, put the fin to a good use I say.

DK

+1

With that livery, Freisinger has won Spa 24 Hours in 2003. Not in N/GT class, but the overall!

[mdaro]

Is there no chance Core Motorsports could be the main sponsor and the GT3 RSR GTE was the bridge?

Maybe Porsche is counting on the new United Sports Car series to bring the car to the states also.

[CyberMotor]

Dyson has been able to blend the fin in better than anyone else with their swoopy livery. Thought others would've done the same.

Muscle Milk has been able to use their's as a billboard for their product line and they have probably made $millions by doing so.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Dyson has been able to blend the fin in better than anyone else with their swoopy livery. Thought others would've done the same.

Muscle Milk has been able to use their's as a billboard for their product line and they have probably made $millions by doing so.

Made millions? Greg Pickett founded and I think still co-owns Muscle Milk. He's probably paying out of his own pocket (or directly from muscle milk's advertising budget)

[Dario911]

According to Mike of Mulsanne's Corner, from the analysis of the exhaust hole of the Porsche, next LMP1 will be fitted with a 4-L engine.
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly13.html
I would be glad to see a V6 turbocharged engine, instead of a 4-L, wich is closer to Porsche philosophy.
It seems FIA and ACO has the same plan of the late '60s: engines easily convertible from endurance to formula 1 and viceversa.
These engines will be close enough that Renault is thinking to the conversion of their F1 V6 to an endurance V6, under Alpine flag.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Dyson has been able to blend the fin in better than anyone else with their swoopy livery. Thought others would've done the same.

Yes , I agree , along with Oak racing .