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Old 24 May 2001, 11:31 (Ref:95925)   #26
Ray Bell
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You people, like everyone else, are underestimating the enthusiasts of Australia....

We saw it for years at Amaroo... crowds dwindling as more and more offensive meetings were put on... real racing pushed into the background as they had Alfa series and TR7 Pro-Ams or whatever, garbage, and without a real race to head the bill...

I believe, with a little time, the balance can be corrected. Get enough promotion out there, have enough meeings, the people would listen to the voices in Kevin Costner's head.
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Old 24 May 2001, 14:00 (Ref:96033)   #27
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I have put my two cents worth in at the Junior Formulae thread/poll started by Vandas (where the other open wheel stuff is).

I agree with most of your comments especially Mr Paterson. I don't think the "build it and they will come" stuff will work Ray. The 2-litres were great back in '96 with Brocky, Richards,etc but no one went to watch them either. The UK Powertour is dying (F3, FF, Porsches etc).

I don't think Formula Holden has ever had more than two good drivers at any one time and I think everyone else just shows up every year because they can afford it i.e. rich old farts. Formula Ford is dying because Ford refuse to release details of the new one make series and not many people are willing to invest in the category just in case they are left with a car that is worth nothing when the new series starts in 2003.

I know people that used to get sponsorship in FF and FH because Channel 7 had good coverage at the same time as the Group A races. I wonder what the ratings are like for Trackside on CH 10 compared to the V8s.
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Old 24 May 2001, 14:18 (Ref:96040)   #28
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Come on, spider, look at the facts. The enthusiasts have been offended for years. Offended because they are forced to sit through three quarters of a day of garbage while they wait to see what they want.

The mix at Super Touring meetings was bad... GTP taking up a lot of track time, little else to bother with. And Touring Cars that made the V8s into hero-mobiles.
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Old 24 May 2001, 23:41 (Ref:96289)   #29
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The problem is how many true enthusiasts are there in this land? I knwo enthusiasts turn up to state level racing- heck, that's where the best racing is, by a long way, and yet they struggle to get more than say 1000 sepctators.
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Old 25 May 2001, 01:04 (Ref:96307)   #30
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They are there. The enthusiasts who don't reckon it's worth going any more are still out there in droves...

They also don't reckon a State Meeting is worth their while...

Deprived of racing for years, offended for decades, they are simply busting to be told there will be a race meeting they can enjoy.

Hold the meeting, let them know, and they will come...

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Old 25 May 2001, 14:30 (Ref:96503)   #31
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I was at the first round of the UK Powertour and myself and few other enthusiasts watched the best of British F3, FF, Porsches etc. I know its a poor photo of Courtney on his way to winning the first F3 race but check out the grandstand. I hear Oulten Park had a very miserable crowd turnout also and Autosport reports that the Powertour won't be around next year.

If they can't get the crowds in the UK for top open wheel racing what chance does FH etc have here. And if so called enthusiasts can't be bothered going to a state race meeting then they are not enthusiasts in the true sense of the word.
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Old 27 May 2001, 11:15 (Ref:97185)   #32
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Here here! Spiderman.

Ray, why don't these so-caled enthusiasts go to State meetings, is it beneath them, is it too common or peasant like for their lofty standards. Perhaps we should pick these snobs up in limos and drive them to the circuit and rollout the bloody red carpet.
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Old 27 May 2001, 13:41 (Ref:97251)   #33
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They aren't snobs, they are people who spent years going to race meetings until they found that it was no longer enjoyable. They were offended by what was being dished up as they waited for the cars and drivers they wanted to see.

And then they had to accept that lesser cars and (sometimes)drivers were being given more status on the programme... main races for second rate cars while the top cars got a five lapper..
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Old 27 May 2001, 22:14 (Ref:97487)   #34
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Sure Formula Ford don't have the big names - but look at *where* the current big names have come from - Lowndes, Perkins, Larkham, Bright, Kelly, Tander, Ferrier etc - all have come through Formula Ford on their way to their current drives.
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Old 27 May 2001, 23:36 (Ref:97530)   #35
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Crash Test should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridCrash Test should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ok, so FHolden, FFord, F3, FVee, Fxyz have their own meeting. Would the quality of driving, and the quality of machinery be enough to get these people of the wordworks?

As a bit of a side track, I was lucky enough to be commentating at Lakeside yesterday when the FFords hit the track....and wow! It was amazing, fast guys coming through from the of the grid, some absolutely awesome racing, cars interlocking wheels- there really isn't much out there that would better it. FHolden may be fast, but they lack the great racing that FFord has to offer. And also in FFord, a 92 (or earlier) model car can still be competitive with a 2001 model car, on a modest budget.
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Old 28 May 2001, 00:03 (Ref:97541)   #36
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Not sure if quality of driving would be enough to draw a crowd in - my own feeling is, certainly, get a race meeting together with Formula Ford, Vee, 3 but NOT Formula Holden. The other 3 categories have good fields around the country - although F3 really is a national, not state, category.

On Lakeside - want to do some chasing up and see if they are going to post any results for the meeting or are they pretending it never happened?
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Old 28 May 2001, 00:44 (Ref:97549)   #37
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You're not listening, folks... they would come... and the competitors would come too, if the meetings were held with sufficient frequency!

The fields would grow and the racing would be good... mind you, it would be different in each class, just as FF is different to FVee.
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Old 28 May 2001, 01:16 (Ref:97561)   #38
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Ray,

Would need a concerted effort from all concerned and, IMHO, I think the organisation would have to be taken OUT of the hands of the track owners/promoters.

You have to seriously consider what would constitute a 'good' meeting - value for money wise.

Open wheelers - as I said - Formula Ford and Formula Vee - no problems about them.

F3 I think would be harder to get as they are not a 'state' category - they have formed themselves into a National body and what you see on the grid for the Australian F3 Championship (or whatever CAMS have allowed them to call it this week) is what you get nationwide.

Superkarts - a good category although because of the misture of categories involved - 80, 125, 250 Nat and Int - there would be a big diversity in racing and competition in a field.

Clubman/Sports 1300 - or whatever it is called in each state. Queensland seems to have the numbers here - VIC certainly doesn't - not sure about NSW.

That only leaves Formula Libre which really is a mixture of all the above (barring Superkarts) when the category, as a whole, isn't on the program.

Not enough to run a race meeting - so you would need to bolster it with something else - at least 3 to 3 more categories.

What would you pick? If you go for full fields, HQ's obviously, maybe Improved Production/Club. Under 2 litre S/Sedans have been dropping off the past few years. And HQ's, in particular, would detract from what this type of meeting would be about.

Put it this way - RaceTime is willing to support this type of race meeting - now get the other areas together and involved and you might get a race meeting.
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Old 28 May 2001, 04:06 (Ref:97604)   #39
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Superkarts- This came up at a meeting the other night, and they have seemed to drop off a bit due to lack of exposure. Back in the days of the AGP Support races in Adelaide, they were booming...not as much these days.

Clubman/Sports 1300- The 1300 side of thing isn't that big up here in QLD. If you were lucky, you might be able to get about 10 cars, 4 of which would be competitive. The big class up here and in NSW at the moment is the Production Sports cars. They are getting big fields- clubmans, Porsches, MX5s etc etc, but they aren't exactly open wheelers.

What sort of turn out do the all open wheel meetings at Wakefield Park get?

Race Time- The timing room at Lakeside was holding a Murphys Law day from what I can gather, and there wont be any results on the net.
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Old 28 May 2001, 04:54 (Ref:97619)   #40
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Superkarts- This came up at a meeting the other night, and they have seemed to drop off a bit due to lack of exposure. Back in the days of the AGP Support races in Adelaide, they were booming...not as much these days.

Vic Superkarts still hold 6 race meetings a year at present - a 2 day at Ph Island in Feb, 3 at Calder and 2 at Winton.

What sort of turn out do the all open wheel meetings at Wakefield Park get?

Not sure - haven't been to one yet - will let you know when I do

Race Time- The timing room at Lakeside was holding a Murphys Law day from what I can gather, and there wont be any results on the net.
You are kidding I hope? What do you mean by Murphys Law day - when everything that could go wrong did or something else?
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Old 28 May 2001, 05:44 (Ref:97629)   #41
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Look at history... they started holding all-Historic meetings all around the country and Historic boomed....

Why not openwheelers, with no watering down?

There's plenty of classes, and I'm not speaking of State Level meetings, either, there's no need to restrict it like that.

Formula Ford will get a full grid.

F3 and the old F2 will get a full grid, at least twenty cars.

Formula Holden will turn out in numbers if there is support for them, another full grid.

Formula Vees... no worries, another full grid, maybe elimination heats.

Invite two feilds of Historic Openwheelers. F5000s and the FPacific cars in one field, you'll get the best part of twenty again, if not more, and another field of Group M and O, the cars from the sixties, which will oversubscribe.

There are six fields. Give them three races each during the day, you have eighteen races. A full race meeting.

If you get FF to make the first such meeting (a kind of trial run) a round of their series, then it will oversubscribe and bring publicity.

Make the FHolden race a full length event, too, or two fifty milers that qualify for the Gold Star. Good crowd-draw potential.

F3s are the new kids on the block, but maybe a bit short in numbers. They will also give plenty of press potential to help with the publicity.

Vees go to their rightful place as makeweights, as do the Historics, but the Historic followers turn up because they want to see them run. Inviting some former topline drivers to do a demo lap (Warwick Brown, Frank Matich, Kevin Bartlett, Niel Allen, even Jack Brabham) gives yet more newspaper (or even TV) exposure to attract a crowd.

Superkarts I would see as no more than a demonstration... it will be a full enough day, though a couple of races could be held Saturday afternoon.

The thing is that you have to use what you have to promote it. Not just let people find out about it and turn up if it fancies them... sell it!

Do it right and the lights will shine.....
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Old 28 May 2001, 05:53 (Ref:97631)   #42
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Agree with you with the exception of Formula Holden - the cost of running these cars has priced them out of anything that isn't a National event. Otherwise there is no reason open wheelers can't run.

So when are you organising the first meeting and where?
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Old 28 May 2001, 06:16 (Ref:97635)   #43
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It would be a National event... a round of their series... I'd love to do it, actually, but it's not up to me.

Where would you run it if it was up to you?

I don't think Wakefield Park is suitable, by the way, or not at this stage, anyway.
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Old 28 May 2001, 06:28 (Ref:97637)   #44
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OK look at this seriously.

No - it wouldn;t be a National event because of the permit fee CAMS would slug on you. Keep it as an Open race meeting - you also have to remember that CAMS charge a higher permit and insurance fee if you charge the public to come in!

Where and when? Forget circuit cost at this stage, but would have to be one the public would go to - so that rules out Ph Island and Winton - too far to travel for one day.

Sandown would be a good circuit but too costly to hire - plus they can only run 5 meetings a year and Davo has all those tied up.

Calder would be good fro a couple of points - close to a major population centre AND choice of tracks - one of which was in use many many years ago - so historical element exists.

Eastern Creek - don't think so - unpopular and can't see much.

Oran Park - on the short circuit - same reason as Calder - the entire circuit is visible.

Queensland Raceway - everything visible but boring!!!! Lakeside - but again not all visible.

Wakefield Park - visibility is very good - location is the only problem BUT the recent crowd at the Pro Car event says it may not be too bad as only an hour from Canberra.

When? NOT in the period June to August - too risky. Silly as it sounds - a December (early) or from around Jan 10th to mid-Feb would, IMO, be a good time - weather - yes can be hot, but not wet and wintery. And, maybe to make it special - even a twilight meeting (would need lights though.
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Old 28 May 2001, 08:33 (Ref:97689)   #45
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Racetime, if you hold it in Queensland the weather is dry in winter and wet in summer. Also Lakeside isn't licensed for Formula Holden or Formula 5000. QR can't even pull a big crowd with V8 Supercars, the place is just awful. A couple of years ago CAMS finally dropped that silly rule about charging extra if you promote the meeting, they finally woke up that marketing the meetings is actually good for the sport and now it's a flat fee, advertised meeting or not.
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Old 28 May 2001, 08:39 (Ref:97691)   #46
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A couple of years ago CAMS finally dropped that silly rule about charging extra if you promote the meeting, they finally woke up that marketing the meetings is actually good for the sport and now it's a flat fee, advertised meeting or not.
Are you sure about that? Seem to recall having this conversation recently with Barbagallo....good if this is what they have actually done though.
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Old 28 May 2001, 08:55 (Ref:97695)   #47
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guys please go back and look at my ideas .
the only way it would work full card of openwheelers is that someone or some group/or a combintion of all class to make a cropate group to bag and tag the Openwheeler Champinships and promote it and sell it
but also it needs F/H to become like F3000 due to the reason that it is more a sellable class plus more car compaines can invest in it

If all this came to get and yes its a very big if it could change the face of australian motorsport
I'am with Ray if you build it they will come

p.s go back and check out my plan it could work plus I e-mailed it to the F/H president last week
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Old 28 May 2001, 09:31 (Ref:97709)   #48
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Racetime, if you hold it in Queensland the weather is dry in winter and wet in summer. Also Lakeside isn't licensed for Formula Holden or Formula 5000. QR can't even pull a big crowd with V8 Supercars, the place is just awful.
Queensland might be okay once it's up and running, but the pilot has to be close to Sydney or Melbourne. I don't think Phillip Id is out of the question, we're talking about attracting people who've been deprived of what they've wanted for years here...

Interesting you say QR can't draw a crowd for the V8s, is that true?

A few more points, without detracting from RALFANATOR's plea to get back to his proposals...

You don't have to see all the track... in fact, it can detract from your pleasure in watching, reduce the excitement...

Eastern Creek has more than one layout...

Winton isn't far from Melbourne...

Last edited by Ray Bell; 28 May 2001 at 09:33.
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Old 28 May 2001, 09:32 (Ref:97710)   #49
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BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence, RALFANATOR...
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Old 28 May 2001, 09:35 (Ref:97711)   #50
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The reason I am discounting Winton is that it is at least 2 1/4 hours drive fro the Melbourne CBD - so each way that's a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive for most fans. For a one day meeting too far and, if a two dayer, accom costs mount up.

Similarly Ph Island - nice place, good drive but only one way in and out - 1 1/2 hours from Melb.

think if anything like this was to get up and running you want to attract NEW blood to the spectator field - that is the only way it could survive - whether it be F/H or whatever.
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