Formula Holden Should It Change

[Crash Test]

Hmmm, in an ideal world you would probably get big grids for all of the said classes, but I'm not sure if the "build it and they will come approach" will necessarily work.

Formula Ford- they can't get a full grid at National Level, and are nowhere near it at state level. If everyone pulled there fings out and got together in the one place at the one time you could fill a grid.

F3 and the old F2- Hmmm, at the moment they are struggling a lil WRT F3, I guess if enough people were prepared to bring the F2s out of mothballs it would be possible.

Formula Holden- If people were prepared to run them, they already would be doing so....

Formula Vees- Really the only FVee field that is full these days is the turn up for the National Championships...even the Super Series doesn't always pull a capacity field.

Invite two feilds of Historic Openwheelers- I guess so, depends on the region, would struggle to get 5 cars if it was held in QLD etc..

[DAVID PATERSON]

Ray, QR was packed out for the first V8 meeting, ever since they've always ended up with considerably less crowd than they anticipated. At last year's 500, you could walk up to any fence you liked and get to the front, there wasn't enough crowd to go 1 deep all the way around. A lot of people came to the first meeting, saw the place, went home unimpressed and haven't been back since.

[RALFANATOR]

Originally posted by Crash Test
Hmmm, in an ideal world you would probably get big grids for all of the said classes, but I'm not sure if the "build it and they will come approach" will necessarily work.

First how are you today CRASH.

You are right but thats if you base it on current promotion and support levels
but if a combin effort by all class to promote & sell such a event
that's different
plus alot of people are talking state level in this thread if a OPENWHEELER CHAMPINSHIP happened it would be at a national level an then a overhaul of state would be a natural progression

[Crash Test]

WRT QR- Do you really think they had 38542 at the first QLD 500, when the Sprint Round in 99 had 27896???

You are right but thats if you base it on current promotion and support levels but if a combin effort by all class to promote & sell such a event that's different plus alot of people are talking state level in this thread if a OPENWHEELER CHAMPINSHIP happened it would be at a national level an then a overhaul of state would be a natural progression

Ok then, if there are going to be extra people step up to this national level, where are they coming from? State Level? Well how come the number of competitors who moves up from state level currently is very low? What are you going to do to fix it?

How are you going to get 20 FHoldens together, if there literaly aren't 20 race ready cars out there?

[redback]

Crash, I remember the first round of the FF championship at Calder in '97. It was a night meeting of the Shell Championship. FF had about 60 entries and had to have seperate qualifying and an extra race for non-qualifyers. Formula Holden was strong too with Bright and Bargwanna. What has changed since then is:

Very high entry fees thanks Mr. Cochrane.

A race schedule that is out of reach of most FF budgets (e.g. Perth as the third round) previously most of the early rounds were in Sydney or Melbourne this helped "most" drivers get established in the series before deciding to commit to the expensive rounds.

No TV coverage at the same time as the V8s.

Uncertainty in the FF category thanks to Howard Marsden and the rumor of a one make series for 2002/2003 (this has been going on for over 2 years now with still no announcement).

Uncertainty in Formula Holden and less guys coming from FF. It is no longer a pre-requisite to V8s like it used to be.

I have spoken to at least 6 guys about going FF but they won't buy a car that they will be stuck with if/when Marsden changes the category. The UK exhange rate has also made cars and parts expensive out of Europe and the locally made product has gone out of favour.
A lot of karters are deciding to stay in karts until they know what is going on and this hasn't helped feed the state grids either. Some karters are by-passing the other categories and going straight to Konica because they can afford it and they can attract sponsors that way. As long as the big players have a strangle hold on Australian racing I don't think much will change. They are only in it for the big bucks and don't realise the long term damage they are doing.

[Ray Bell]

No, they simply don't care what damage they do!

Look, the cars are there, the drivers are there, the spectators are there, they just need notice that it will happen, they will come!

And I don't think the two hours out of Melbourne would hurt them, either, if Winton was chose, which gives somewhat easier access from Sydney and good access from Canberra, unchanged from Adelburg.

And don't forget, the main point I have been making is that the spectators are people who have given up because of the offence they felt at what's been dished up to them before... while introducing new spectators is naturally desirable, the base is there.

From the FHolden point of view, the real problem in the past has just been touched on here... the V8s get the TV time, they are also-rans on a program devised for the uninformed crowd, makeweights of the same status we used to see in Formula Vee!

If it's by some chance run at a circuit where FHoldens and F5000 aren't supposed to run, conduct the meeting without CAMS... give them the flick, they can't do anything about it (as they have learned to our cost over the past decade), and when the meeting's a success, run the Adelaide meeting at AIR just for a change!

On the subject of small fields - Why not lock your car in the shed when you're treated like that? Banned from good circuits, pushed to the back end of the pits and shunned...

Run the meeting, promote it, get airtime on TV, space in newspapers, get the word out properly, make sure the entry fee at the gate isn't too great... they will come!

[Crash Test]

Redback- spot on.

Run the meeting, promote it, get airtime on TV, space in newspapers, get the word out properly, make sure the entry fee at the gate isn't too great... they will come!
- Ok, TV time, space in newspapers, you would also imagine a bit of magazine and radio coverage. From what I know, this costs an awful lot of money... You wont charge high gate fees- nobody will come, and you wont charge high entry fees, nobody will race. You would then need someone with a big open wallet to back the event, or failing that, some form of corporate sponsorship. Would companies back an untrialed concept? They might, but I would doubt it would be anywhere near sufficient to cover costs.

[RaceTime]

And, as I mentioned before, for something untried like this you MUST have it close to a population centre because you MUST attract new spectators. If you continue to rely on bringing back the same people all the time you may as well pack it in before you even start - NO sport or entertainment can survive if you don't try to encourage new fans.

[Crash Test]

Here's somthing that I've been thinking about. What makes race series other than the V8s popular?

TOCA- They really are fading though. I guess they are relying on previous years racing, and the spectator who went in those years to keep coming back. Also, they do get a lump of TV time, which helps, and do get a bit of coverage in the motoring magaznies (but nowhere near as much, as say 3 years ago).

Power Tour- The trucks really don't draw a crowd anywhere these days, except for Oran Park. It has been put together as a total entertainment package- you have your trucks which are sensational around OP, Daewoos I guess can turn it on, HQ....well they're HQs, and the stock cars which are bigger and noisier than the v8s. At OP they are well promoted, and people know about them. From what I gather, they do a fair bit of promotion at the outside NSW rounds, but really, it doesn't seem to be paying off for them.

Konica Series- Really are riding on the back of the V8s....and to date, they really haven't taken. Then again, does anyone know how well the Wakefield Park race was promoted? I know at the previously highest attended meeting at Lakeside last year, the Wakefield factor, as well as the fact that fans are starved of V8 racing at Lakeside really helped their cause. I would have expected (and I would imagine AVESCO as well) that they would have had considerably bigger crowds to their meetings.

Historic race meetings- Yes they do have big crowds, compared to these other sorts of meetings., but i think there are several reasons why.
1- If you have a meeting with 200-300 competitors (remember, normally if there are regularity trials, there could be a good 100+ cars involved with that..) you have 200-300 times the amount of passes given out per entry. Lets say 4-5 passes per car, that gives you 800-1500 spectators straight off the bat. Then at these events there are normally many different historic car clubs invited. Taking in the example of the Lakeside 40th Bday meeting, the QLD Mini club was invited, so at a discout entry fee, 80-100 car loads of minis turned up. Then of course you get the old timers who only turn out for the Historic meetings, and then you get the regular race goers who turn up to the race track even if there is nothing racing.

2- Why do these events get such high entry numbers? I think it is beacuse there is only 1 or 2 historic meetings per year, thus, everyone goes out and has a flog only on those couple of weekends. Plsu I'd imagine, many of the owners of 'specials' and early model cars probably wouldn't be too keen on flogging their old warhorses every second weekend. Another factor, which I believe is true, is that these competitors are not aware that other race meetings are on- they don't get sent entry forms. I think this played a part in the Grp N class at the Lakeside Historic last year when they had a larger than normal field, bolstered by a few newcomers that haven't raced since, and a few interstate visitors.

State level racing- This is something that I've worked long and hard at.... From past experiences, advertising doesn't do squat. TV advertising, radio, newspaper etc doesn't effect crowd levels. Every meeting the same people keep turning up. I can tell you now that there is going to be a blue and white panel van, and a portable shade structure set up at the next Lakeside state meeting.

The best attended state meeting I have been to in recent years was when the promoters gave out double the normal number of passes to competitors. The crowd was huge, but after analysing gate takings there were only an extra 30 people paying through the gate than normally.

So why don't they get the grids? Many and varied reasons. Would only 1 or 2 race meetings per year be of benefit as per the Historic case? Probably not. People would get discouraged that they could only use their investment a few times a year. It's funny, the people are out there, and if we got them all in the one place at the one time, there would be a helluva race meeting. For example, after 3 sports sedan race meetings this year, there have already been over 30 diferent cars take the track. The problem is, there hve only been a maximum of 18 entries at any one race meeting.

[RaceTime]

Why are there small grids?

Three reasons - entry fees, travel/accom costs and the NUMBER of races.

Victoria, as an example, insists on packing 10 categories into their State Race Meetings. So what is the outcome of this? One Practice/Qualifying Session and one race on Saturday, two races on Sunday.

The organisers of this series are not listening to the competitors who are grumbling about lack of racing - they would only have to drop the number of categories at each meeting to 8 and they could fit in another race for each category - this would go a long way to pleasing competitors.

Similarly Historics - Prac/Qual session (quite often two) - one race on Saturday and usually 3 on the Sunday.

Competitors soon get jacked off at having to go to a two day race meeting for what amounts to only four sessions on the track over two days.

[Crash Test]

Of course the problem is, having two extra classes ups the number of entries, thus making it more proitable to have a race meeting.

One problem at state level and two day meetings is that many people have to work on Saturdays. This might not be a massive problem for competitors who have their priorities right () but it does majorly eat into the number of officials who are available.

A big problem with only having a couple of races on Sunday was that if there are any dramas, races will get cut. Two times this year races have had to be cancelled (once due to flooding, the second to bad/no light)....thus you get guys who have sat there all afternoon waiting for a race, and they wind up missing out..

[racer69]

Why not have Formula Vee's, Formula Fords, Formula Holden and Formula 3 on the one program, it would stop them getting overshadowed by the tin-tops and may start some corporate interest

[RALFANATOR]

Originally posted by racer69
Why not have Formula Vee's, Formula Fords, Formula Holden and Formula 3 on the one program, it would stop them getting overshadowed by the tin-tops and may start some corporate interest

that what we are talking about a possible programe
pls felt free to go back a couple of pages in which I outlined a idea for a new champinship which I would call the Australian OpenWheeler Champinship.


Crash just going back to who would run this national event
well my idea would to have a corpate body made up to look after all
current heads of all current class ie: f/h(AF3000) PRES & F3 PRES& so on to FVee all these pres would start a corpate body such as Australian Openwheeler Ascosition which would look after all day to day runs for the AOWC like AVESCO for V8's saying that new president's would take over for the day to day running of the classes
but would still be anwsering to the borad of AOWA

REMEMBER THIS IS JUST AN IDEA

[Crash Test]

They probably wouldn't appreciate that, as most classes seem to want to look after their own needs, they don't want some bafoon to run their show.

Then again, the Power Tour might be a bit of an exemption. Even though it is basically run by the ANTRO people, they are out there promoting all of the classes. It also helped that they have a bit of cash to start their series up... It's all money, and I'm telling you, for the Power Tour to be on Speedweek and late night Ch10, that costs an awful lot of $$$.

[RaceTime]

The Power Tour may be the idea of ANTRO but think you will find that it is being organised by the Motorsport Promoters Group which, although claimed to be an 'amalgamation' of the groups involved, really seems to be the promoters.

[Crash Test]

The Motorsport Promoters Group- is that the same mob that Mike Raymond used to head?

[RaceTime]

Originally posted by Crash Test
The Motorsport Promoters Group- is that the same mob that Mike Raymond used to head?

I believe so - whether he is still involved I am not sure. Nick Ebeck (sp?) is now the CEO of it

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RaceTime
And, as I mentioned before, for something untried like this you MUST have it close to a population centre because you MUST attract new spectators. If you continue to rely on bringing back the same people all the time you may as well pack it in before you even start - NO sport or entertainment can survive if you don't try to encourage new fans.

Sure you must get new specators in time, but for the moment there are plenty out there who have been hounded away by offensive race programmes. They would come back immediately...

Crash, there's no need to pay for a lot of that publicity. You can get it for nothing if it's made newsworthy.

And nobody that exists at the moment should run it... nobody other than a Formula Vee Association or somebody at the bottom of the rung... they have to respect the fields they are running.

[Crash Test]

Nick Ebeck was the driving force behind ANTRO.

Ray- how do you get newsworthy free advertising?

[Crash Test]

Now I see NRC have left the series....thats two more (of the 4 or 5 competitive cars) gone....so they are back to 10 car grids? That can't be good...

[Ray Bell]

The first bit of newsworthiness is the fact that it's a return to meetings featuring Racing Cars. The days of old, but with modern cars...

Then comes the personality stuff, and the inclusion of any of the big-name drivers who jump on the bandwagon...

It can be done.

[RALFANATOR]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The first bit of newsworthiness is the fact that it's a return to meetings featuring Racing Cars. The days of old, but with modern cars...

Then comes the personality stuff, and the inclusion of any of the big-name drivers who jump on the bandwagon...

It can be done.

Yes it can be done its just selling the product just one or two big names (drivers) and incorpertae a opertunity for team owners like NRC & so on to make openwheelers there main priorty and this could be done so many ways from a TEAM c/SHIP within a class to oppertunites
O/S for the teams so its just a matter of nutting out deal's
A couple of celb apperance does wonder's on national T.V as well and its free.