F1 Credibility Gap

[Gingers4Justice]

The difference between conservation now and conservation in the past in F1 is that today, it's almost entirely manufactured.

Drive a 1950s F1 car at full pelt for 2 hours, and it will break. It wasn't control tires, or fuel-flow limiters, or engine/gearbox restrictions which the drivers and teams had to consider, it was the fact the technology was young, unproven and often not fully understood and if you pushed it too hard for too long it broke. It's what separates the great from the good. There are many drivers with the bravery and reflexes to drive an F1 car fast for a lap. It's the great drivers who understand what the car's doing - they save tenths correcting the slide before it comes, feel the tire that's going to drop off laps before it does and know what that drop in track temperature will do to the car's grip without even thinking about it. That's the skill you need to be a multiple World Champion, not flat out speed over a lap - otherwise you'd have wonderkids in karting telling the press they want to grow up to emulate their hero Jarno Trulli.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not the cars themselves that's made F1 popular, but the drivers. But you need a certain type of car to put the drivers in a super-hero scenario which us mere mortals can't really imagine. Do you see a 2014 F1 car and think "wow, I just couldn't do that"?

Not enough people do, even though these cars are more complex to master than they've been for a while now. That, for me, is partly down to the major road car manufacturers who would rather tell you about how road-relevant, innovative and green the new PUs are - although even that message was lost by the nonsense we had about the noise from Bernie and various other stakeholders.

All Formula One seems to be at the moment is crisis management. We're not going to get out of this mess until all the parties get together and decide what F1 is and who it's for. That's not going to happen while this mess continues to make so much money for CVC.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

The difference between conservation now and conservation in the past in F1 is that today, it's almost entirely manufactured.

Drive a 1950s F1 car at full pelt for 2 hours, and it will break. It wasn't control tires, or fuel-flow limiters, or engine/gearbox restrictions which the drivers and teams had to consider, it was the fact the technology was young, unproven and often not fully understood and if you pushed it too hard for too long it broke. It's what separates the great from the good. There are many drivers with the bravery and reflexes to drive an F1 car fast for a lap. It's the great drivers who understand what the car's doing - they save tenths correcting the slide before it comes, feel the tire that's going to drop off laps before it does and know what that drop in track temperature will do to the car's grip without even thinking about it. That's the skill you need to be a multiple World Champion, not flat out speed over a lap - otherwise you'd have wonderkids in karting telling the press they want to grow up to emulate their hero Jarno Trulli.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not the cars themselves that's made F1 popular, but the drivers. But you need a certain type of car to put the drivers in a super-hero scenario which us mere mortals can't really imagine. Do you see a 2014 F1 car and think "wow, I just couldn't do that"?

Not enough people do, even though these cars are more complex to master than they've been for a while now. That, for me, is partly down to the major road car manufacturers who would rather tell you about how road-relevant, innovative and green the new PUs are - although even that message was lost by the nonsense we had about the noise from Bernie and various other stakeholders.

All Formula One seems to be at the moment is crisis management. We're not going to get out of this mess until all the parties get together and decide what F1 is and who it's for. That's not going to happen while this mess continues to make so much money for CVC.

I have said this for a long time now. Bernie has another plan, underway now and the FIA may be powerless to stop him.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I have said this for a long time now. Bernie has another plan, underway now and the FIA may be powerless to stop him.

What plan is that?

[Teretonga]

In his spiel about going back to normally aspirated V10's or V8's (which I think is highly unlikely) he was asked if the FIA would be happy and as they are regulator they would have to approve it. Bernie appeared to be dismissive about the FIA saying that they had sold the rights (to regulate?) to the strategy group....

If true, it is counter to what the EU commission said to the FIA regarding not being involved in the commercial side but Bernie indicated they had received a payment of $40 million from CVC (or FOM) and it has recently been noted by the EU commission that the FIA now holds a small shareholding in F1 valued at $120 million.

Bernie's slant to the journalists was that the strategy group was the way FOM and he thought it should be set up, but it makes it almost impossible for the FIA to lead the regulation process because Bernie and the teams hold 2/3rds of the vote. If they don't want it they can scuttle or veto it.

Now Bernie may be just stroking someone's fur, or he may really have it in his mind to take the whole show away from the FIA's paws. It wouldn't be F1 because the FIA owns that logo but Bernie owns GP1 so there's always a vehicle waiting in the wings.

Some of it is here:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29626.html
More here at the end of the Pitpass article:
http://www.pitpass.com/53120/Ecclest...0s-or-anything

[wolfhound]

I suspect Berie's other plan might to buy F1 from CVC at a bargain price. At the moment he is in the softening up process by trying to devalue F1 with his various comments and the loss of teams etc. Its the only thing that makes sence with some of things he says. I don't think Bernie wants F1 to go public because he would almost certainly loose control. He is also running the risk of the FIA taking back F1 if too many teams drop out.
The way Bernie has setup the strategy group could make F1 ungovernable as can be seen with some of the new rules that have come out of it.
I notice that he appears to be being dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age by CVC as there are now a number of staff working on it at FOM.

http://www.pitpass.com/53125/F1-look...s-reservations

If Bernie was to setup a GP1 championship he would still need approval from the FIA as very little motorsport happens at international level without the FIA's approval.

[Paradise City]

Bernie wrecking F1 so he can buy it up cheap? I can well believe that is something Eccelstone would attempt.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I suspect Berie's other plan might to buy F1 from CVC at a bargain price. At the moment he is in the softening up process by trying to devalue F1 with his various comments and the loss of teams etc. Its the only thing that makes sence with some of things he says. I don't think Bernie wants F1 to go public because he would almost certainly loose control. He is also running the risk of the FIA taking back F1 if too many teams drop out.
The way Bernie has setup the strategy group could make F1 ungovernable as can be seen with some of the new rules that have come out of it.
I notice that he appears to be being dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age by CVC as there are now a number of staff working on it at FOM.

http://www.pitpass.com/53125/F1-look...s-reservations

If Bernie was to setup a GP1 championship he would still need approval from the FIA as very little motorsport happens at international level without the FIA's approval.

If he continues in this present vein he will not need to set up another championship. The present one will no longer be under the FIA's direct control.

He will not need anyone's permission to do anything because in his terms "they have sold us the rights. We paid for it".

The strategy group is his vehicle for neutralising the FIA. It doesn't have to work to serve Bernie or CVC because it has already served it's purpose.

The present set up basically sets up the primo teams and Bernie/CVC as equal partners with the FIA still the regulator but hamstrung with no power over the other two to regulate independently. Todt admits this.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I suspect Berie's other plan might to buy F1 from CVC at a bargain price. At the moment he is in the softening up process by trying to devalue F1 with his various comments and the loss of teams etc. Its the only thing that makes sence with some of things he says. I don't think Bernie wants F1 to go public because he would almost certainly loose control. He is also running the risk of the FIA taking back F1 if too many teams drop out.
The way Bernie has setup the strategy group could make F1 ungovernable as can be seen with some of the new rules that have come out of it.
I notice that he appears to be being dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age by CVC as there are now a number of staff working on it at FOM.

http://www.pitpass.com/53125/F1-look...s-reservations

If Bernie was to setup a GP1 championship he would still need approval from the FIA as very little motorsport happens at international level without the FIA's approval.

Isn't approval from the FIA the bottom line? Bernie may well be ruining F1 so he can buy it up cheap and take control but without the FIA's sanction, I wouldn't have thought Ferrari etc., would be willing to follow him if he trys to set up his own GP1 series?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Isn't approval from the FIA the bottom line? Bernie may well be ruining F1 so he can buy it up cheap and take control but without the FIA's sanction, I wouldn't have thought Ferrari etc., would be willing to follow him if he trys to set up his own GP1 series?

The FIA simply exclude you from all the other series if you participate in an "Outlaw Series", not so good if you are a manufacturer involved in other racing, Touring Cars, Rally, WEC etc.

So Bernie has zero chance of running a non FIA sanctioned series.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

The FIA simply exclude you from all the other series if you participate in an "Outlaw Series", not so good if you are a manufacturer involved in other racing, Touring Cars, Rally, WEC etc.

So Bernie has zero chance of running a non FIA sanctioned series.

He doesn't need to start a new outlaw series. The outlaws can outlaw the FIA from controlling their own series if the sell it or give it away....

Then they become the in-laws....

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ames/#comments

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

He doesn't need to start a new outlaw series. The outlaws can outlaw the FIA from controlling their own series if the sell it or give it away....

Then they become the in-laws....

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ames/#comments

Thanks T, interesting article:

"If the FIA had not sold its right to make unilateral decisions – a disgraceful move in my opinion – then the federation could simply dictate that engine manufacturers be only allowed to supply engines at a fixed cost and thus the small teams would be able to survive. The sport would still be seen as cutting edge and everyone would be better off."

Take it this was another Mosley Ecclestone manoeuvre!?

[chillibowl]

is NASCAR a FIA approved/sanctioned series? i dont know but i dont think it is.

of course its a different market entirely but i would think there would be more problems (legally anyways) for the FIA if it publicly started blacklisting manus and race tracks if they crossed over to a rival series.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is NASCAR a FIA approved/sanctioned series? i dont know but i dont think it is.

of course its a different market entirely but i would think there would be more problems (legally anyways) for the FIA if it publicly started blacklisting manus and race tracks if they crossed over to a rival series.

NASCAR is part of ACCUS, The Automobile Competition Committee of the United States and is what the FIA call a ''member club''

http://www.accusfia.us/


I don't think there would be any need for the FIA to blacklist manus and race tracks, if they crossed over to a rival series. With the way the FIA is setup and with all these member clubs they have, they could make it tricky for anyone from a series outside the FIA to participate in any series the FIA directly sanctions or is associated with.

[chillibowl]

fair points. thanks for the info

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks T, interesting article:

"If the FIA had not sold its right to make unilateral decisions – a disgraceful move in my opinion – then the federation could simply dictate that engine manufacturers be only allowed to supply engines at a fixed cost and thus the small teams would be able to survive. The sport would still be seen as cutting edge and everyone would be better off."

Take it this was another Mosley Ecclestone manoeuvre!?

Not Mosley. It happened more recently, around the time when the strategy group was being set up and the FIA needed money so Ecclestone /CVC/FOM made $40 million available and Todt took the bait.

It may have something to do with this (or maybe not)

http://www.pitpass.com/53071/FIA-tak...-than-expected

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Not Mosley. It happened more recently, around the time when the strategy group was being set up and the FIA needed money so Ecclestone /CVC/FOM made $40 million available and Todt took the bait.

It may have something to do with this (or maybe not)

http://www.pitpass.com/53071/FIA-tak...-than-expected

Thanks T, fascinating, Bernie at his best, wow! How to use the EU regulations to get more of what you want, Bernie has just plain made fools out of everyone he deals with.

One point however, the FIA would not necessarily do a better job of regulating F1, and Bernie needs a show to make his money, so he has a direct monetary interest in seeing the best racing possible.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks T, fascinating, Bernie at his best, wow! How to use the EU regulations to get more of what you want, Bernie has just plain made fools out of everyone he deals with.

One point however, the FIA would not necessarily do a better job of regulating F1, and Bernie needs a show to make his money, so he has a direct monetary interest in seeing the best racing possible.

That's true. But he said in America or Brazil that he knew he had a problem, he just didn't know how to resolve it.

If he had Horner, Wolff, Dennis and others hovering around making their comments, he may have just decided to go with the tight six and just push the other team backwards over the line...... and nab the try that way...

Hence the show of strength and walling out any opposing views since they were in Sao Paulo

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks T, fascinating, Bernie at his best, wow! How to use the EU regulations to get more of what you want, Bernie has just plain made fools out of everyone he deals with.

One point however, the FIA would not necessarily do a better job of regulating F1, and Bernie needs a show to make his money, so he has a direct monetary interest in seeing the best racing possible.

Isn't seeing the best racing possible what it's all about, as far as Bernie's concerned? He hates the new PUs because he thinks they don't sound right and he dislikes the idea of F1 being linked with social media because it potentially diminshies his overall control, hence part of the situation F1 finds itself in now.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Isn't seeing the best racing possible what it's all about, as far as Bernie's concerned? He hates the new PUs because he thinks they don't sound right and he dislikes the idea of F1 being linked with social media because it potentially diminshies his overall control, hence part of the situation F1 finds itself in now.

He avoids social media directly simply because he sees U-Tube as being parasitic. it means his content that he has copyrighted appears FREE of charge to anyone to watch it and he has no way to get a return on his investment.

I would have a better way of handling that than he has but the truth is that is Bernie and he isn't the sort of person to suffer fools.

Things like facebook and Twitter he doesn't bother with because its time consuming, it costs you money and there is no immediate return on it?

He has spent millions on TV/video production each year so why should someone get it for nothing? That is his reasoning.

I see younger people than me meet in a room, pull out their phones and spend 30-40 minutes reading their mail and sending messages before they start talking to each other!
Bernie couldn't be bothered with that. He has no time for it hence the whole social media thing is just a waste of time to him. There is no purpose, meaning, or end to it. So why pursue it. He has people working out ways to use it to build popularity and snare people in but there is no way he is going to give away FREE coverage to people who haven't paid for it....

It would diminish his control and it would certainly violate or void some of his TV contracts and deals, and cost him money, so no.

But in the other stuff. Yes, he wants good racing, he wants it to be attractive, he wants F1 to be dynamic but it isn't at the moment despite some brilliant racing, so what can he do to change that? He doesn't know, or isn't sure where to progress from here, so we get the aging man making silly statements etc because he is scratching for some traction on the ice. He doesn't like it here because its cold and slippery and nothing is easy like it used to be.

The world has changed / is changing.

[Paradise City]

Bernie is poor with conventional media. It's not hard to imagine he hates social media. Hell, I hate social media.

Bernie's genius comes in the boardroom and he did good work when he was ruling as someone who was unknown outside the sport and media scrutiny was agricultural and didn't take an interest in Eccelstone.

But when he handed that cash to Blair, he become a celebrity and we've been greeted with clangers that women are kitchen appliances and exploring Adolf Hitler's alleged ability to "get things done". That's not a guy who can handle the media well.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Bernie is poor with conventional media. It's not hard to imagine he hates social media. Hell, I hate social media.

Bernie's genius comes in the boardroom and he did good work when he was ruling as someone who was unknown outside the sport and media scrutiny was agricultural and didn't take an interest in Eccelstone.

But when he handed that cash to Blair, he become a celebrity and we've been greeted with clangers that women are kitchen appliances and exploring Adolf Hitler's alleged ability to "get things done". That's not a guy who can handle the media well.

I am afraid that I think that you, and many, many others, are so wrong about Ecclestone, and so you tend to underrate, or at least under-estimate, his ability to handle the media.

I would hazard a guess that probably 99 plus percent of his utterances are clearly planned for a specific purpose. Even at the age of 84, his mind is constantly churning over how to respond to situations and/or media questions, and he acts on those mullings of the mind. For example, think back to the time that he was appearing in the court case in London, and he went in and out of the court seemingly "stuck" in the revolving door. If you think logically you would appreciate that if he had just said the same things to the attendant media before disappearing into court that his words would have carried virtually no weight. However, by "acting" as a clown, he grabbed everybody's attention, and, because of his acting the fool, he became one of the major news stories of the day, especially on mainstream TV news programmes. He couldn't have bought that coverage, yet he got it for free.

He just doesn't drop clangers; he says, and does things, that stop the media/world in their tracks, and his message becomes more important for his actions. There is always a reason; the problem is that the reason may not become obvious for some considerable time after the event.

Don't, even for one moment, think that B.E. is becoming senile or is suffering from dementia. I just wish that my mind was even half as active/productive as his.

[Paradise City]

Yeah, he knows enough to play the cup and ball trick using the media. He stirs up controversy in one hand whilst the unsighted hand does the mischief unscrutinised.

Even disparaging social media is part of that. Eccelstone-watchers the world over are feeding on this whilst obscuring the antics of his other tentacles.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

He avoids social media directly simply because he sees U-Tube as being parasitic. it means his content that he has copyrighted appears FREE of charge to anyone to watch it and he has no way to get a return on his investment.

I would have a better way of handling that than he has but the truth is that is Bernie and he isn't the sort of person to suffer fools.

Things like facebook and Twitter he doesn't bother with because its time consuming, it costs you money and there is no immediate return on it?

He has spent millions on TV/video production each year so why should someone get it for nothing? That is his reasoning.

I see younger people than me meet in a room, pull out their phones and spend 30-40 minutes reading their mail and sending messages before they start talking to each other!
Bernie couldn't be bothered with that. He has no time for it hence the whole social media thing is just a waste of time to him. There is no purpose, meaning, or end to it. So why pursue it. He has people working out ways to use it to build popularity and snare people in but there is no way he is going to give away FREE coverage to people who haven't paid for it....

It would diminish his control and it would certainly violate or void some of his TV contracts and deals, and cost him money, so no.

That's why I said he dislikes the idea of F1 being linked with social media because it potentially diminshes his overall control, but it doesn't have to.

Copyright is obviously one of Bernie's concerns but he doesn't need to use YouTube. If he wants to stream video content, without fear of it being downloaded for free etc., that's already being done on the F1 website. Similarly, if you try to save a photo from the F1 website's gallery, a message comes up saying, "The entire content on this site is protected by copyright, trademark rights and database rights. No reproduction without the consent of the relevant owner".

With regards to Facebook and Twitter, both are free and video content can be shared on both, by posting a link to your wall or Twitter account, which takes you back to the F1 website.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

But in the other stuff. Yes, he wants good racing, he wants it to be attractive, he wants F1 to be dynamic but it isn't at the moment despite some brilliant racing, so what can he do to change that? He doesn't know, or isn't sure where to progress from here, so we get the aging man making silly statements etc because he is scratching for some traction on the ice. He doesn't like it here because its cold and slippery and nothing is easy like it used to be.

As far as the racing itself goes and We all want it to be dynamic and as you say, we have had some brilliant racing this year. I think you're right, he doesn't know, or isn't sure where to progress from here and the two things that have contributed to this, have been the dominance by RBR and Vettel of the previous 4 years and now, despite the new formula, another team has completely dominated this season and on paper look like doing the same again next season and this is not good for the sport.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The world has changed / is changing.

It sure is.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Both Bernie and Luca di Montezemolo rejoin F1's board.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117190

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Both Bernie and Luca di Montezemolo rejoin F1's board.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117190

Luca di Montezemolo possible successor to Bernie, that should bloody do it!