Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

Professional motor racing is only there for one reason

Yes, it's an outlet for the automotive industry.

If it isn't or you don't, you get crazy ideas likes making cars the same or as close as possible. You also get reverse grids, weight penalties, and (lol) a "playoff" series.

Originally Posted by Casper

and that is entertainment.

What???

Originally Posted by Casper

SC, BTCC, NASCAR etc are designed to make money for the promoter and participants and then entertain but above all to make money and that does not happen without fans being entertained.

Yes, the motor racing industry has been corralled towards entertainment for the purposes of making money for the promoter. All three have large weaknesses in their "product", which is offset by other factors.

it's questionable how much the "fans" are entertained.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yes, it's an outlet for the automotive industry.

If it isn't or you don't, you get crazy ideas likes making cars the same or as close as possible. You also get reverse grids, weight penalties, and (lol) a "playoff" series.

What???

You are wrong, your Idylic idea of motor racing has not existed in this country for many years if it ever did and that is doubtful. Just because motor racing is not seen the same way by others as your good self does not make it less in the eyes of the fans who know nothing about motor racing and the technical stuff that drives it. Show me in the daily media where the so called factories tout their achievements, that never happens now not even after Bathurst but I can recall when it did. Big ads in the newspapers were common when series prod was the factory battleground but no longer and it will never return. Oran Park used to be sold out and the fans were there for the entertainment and nothing else so nothing has changed. I will leave you to debate your views with someone else.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I acknowledge that Casper doesn't want to chat further about it. I never intended to chat with him anyway. I'm only quoting him to further clarify my point.

Originally Posted by Casper

You are wrong, your Idylic idea of motor racing has not existed in this country for many years if it ever did and that is doubtful. Just because motor racing is not seen the same way by others as your good self does not make it less in the eyes of the fans who know nothing about motor racing

Well, they're not really fans.

Originally Posted by Casper

and the technical stuff that drives it.

This is wrong.

The technical stuff that drives it is the core of racing and what you see on the track. You don't have to get deep in the knowledge of it, but it has to be understood that the authenticity of it is more important than what a viewer sees.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I acknowledge that Casper doesn't want to chat further about it. I never intended to chat with him anyway. I'm only quoting him to further clarify my point.

Well, they're not really fans.


This is wrong.

The technical stuff that drives it is the core of racing and what you see on the track. You don't have to get deep in the knowledge of it, but it has to be understood that the authenticity of it is more important than what a viewer sees.

Is it now. Says who? You? That makes it gospel?

[AnnoyedMoose]

Surely it's because we have manufacturers involved that things like performance balancing, ballast weights etc are so common now. Take TCR, if a car has a natural disadvantage due to it's shape, size etc then the manufacturer just won't enter without the promise of balancing. In the "good old days" when tens of millions were spent on tin top racing then they would produce a homologation special but those day are gone and will never return.

Take the manufacturers out of it and just have teams whose only interest is in racing and development of the cars you may well get less variety but a lot less "gimmicks".

The bulk of my family (average armchair fans IMO) who watch motor racing couldn't give a monkeys about the technical side of it. All they want to see is close wheel to wheel exciting racing.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Take the manufacturers out of it and just have teams whose only interest is in racing and development of the cars you may well get less variety but a lot less "gimmicks".
.

In that case, what would it matter if everyone has an identical Mustang with similar BOSS 302 / Yates D3 engine?

Furthermore, the likes of GRM and MSR are specifically not interested in "development" because you have to manufacture a lot of parts & spares, a lot of which never get raced, and it's just not very cost-effective to be constantly changing the specification of your front suspension (for example).

You end up with these big piles of old-specification parts that are no use for anything, except for flogging off to Super2 teams! :/

Cost-effective categories are all about stability, and not making parts redundant every few months.

Surely it's because we have manufacturers involved that things like performance balancing,

On the other hand, DTM have decided on "GT3 Plus" -- GT3 cars with less restricted engines and a bit more aero. That would allow for 5-10 different manufacturers with suitable BOP to paritise the different designs, so there's that.

It is surprising that Supercars and DTM could not agree on a common set of rules given the have the same goals:
- Aspirational sports coupes
- Needs to be much cheaper than SuperGT Class One / old DTM
- Not reliant on manufacturer teams


https://au.motorsport.com/dtm/news/g...-plus/4860158/

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Show me in the daily media where the so called factories tout their achievements, that never happens now not even after Bathurst

For whatever reason, the Bathurst 1000 has not attracted the interest of Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and Audi, in the same way the Bathurst 12 hour has.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Im a long time reader and felt compelled to comment today.

It feels like motorsport fans have this big split in identity, half want a series as entertainment i.e. love loud v8 cars that for all purposes couldn't care what body is around the v8 engine.

The other half want a series with road relevant cars such as TCR or Improved Production.

The biggest question I think is how many fans are on each side, I get a feeling more just want something loud with a v8 rumble, look fast and race close to each other.

My last though is how lucky my favourite motorsport is speedway, no resemblance to road car politics at all. Sprintcars with 900hp 410ci V8 Engines, Late Models with wild wedge bodies and 450ci engines.

In the US dirt tracks are flourishing, while NASCAR is trying to work out where it all went wrong. Even in Australia, Speedway venues have great competitor numbers and thousands attend events each week. Why because the formula is simple, Loud + Fast + No Gimmicks = Entertainment = Fans

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

In the US dirt tracks are flourishing, while NASCAR is trying to work out where it all went wrong. Even in Australia, Speedway venues have great competitor numbers and thousands attend events each week. Why because the formula is simple, Loud + Fast + No Gimmicks = Entertainment = Fans

Club type racing is always entertaining but the problems arise when money starts to get involved. It then becomes an arms race to be competitive at which point the organisers have to decide do they let it carry on that way or do they bring in strict rules and/or performance balancing.

See it happen many times to series here in the UK. It's amazing the money people will spend for a bit of "big fish in a small pond" fame.

It's the root problem (IMO) in most motorsport. There is always someone who will spend whatever they need to win and it's difficult to stop them while keeping the sport "pure". Make a series totally spec and then it's all about big salaries for the best personnel to run the cars and best facilities for blue printing, fatigue checking, stripdowns etc.

One of the best methods I heard of was a series in Poland where every car had to be sold to if a competitor made an offer above a certain price. Pointless spending far more than others to win if they can just buy the car from under you. Can't see that going down well in Supercars though!

[chavez]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

One of the best methods I heard of was a series in Poland where every car had to be sold to if a competitor made an offer above a certain price. Pointless spending far more than others to win if they can just buy the car from under you. Can't see that going down well in Supercars though!

And in some local dirt track series in the USA.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

The biggest question I think is how many fans are on each side, I get a feeling more just want something loud with a v8 rumble, look fast and race close to each other.

Speak for yourself, a wailing V12 runs rings around a rumbling V8 in my book!

The Australian obsession with V8s over V12s is rather odd IMO.

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

The biggest question I think is how many fans are on each side, I get a feeling more just want something loud with a v8 rumble, look fast and race close to each other.Sprintcars with 900hp 410ci V8 Engines, Late Models with wild wedge bodies and 450ci engines.

I don't think fans are necessarily obsessed with uneven firing intervals as you imply IMO, the speedway bikes are very popular even though they run high-pitched Japanese flatplane inline-fours.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Speak for yourself, a wailing V12 runs rings around a rumbling V8 in my book!

The Australian obsession with V8s over V12s is rather odd IMO.



I don't think fans are necessarily obsessed with uneven firing intervals as you imply IMO, the speedway bikes are very popular even though they run high-pitched Japanese flatplane inline-fours.

Speedway bikes are big the europe, but in reality here they struggle to get reasonable spectator counts, not to mention very few facilities near capital cities.

Oddly enough the V8 powered classes in speedway attract the biggest crowds every season at majority of venues across Australia.


Outside of this, look at how many older gentlemen are willing to buy a TA2 car here in Australia. I believe over 50 sold in a very short amount of time.

Id be happy to see V8 Supercars run a TA2 car (maybe more like a Marc car) with bigger rims, more hp and sequential shifter. Perfect fit what ever composite body you want and go racing.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Speak for yourself, a wailing V12 runs rings around a rumbling V8 in my book!

The Australian obsession with V8s over V12s is rather odd IMO.

That's most likely influenced by where childhood / early adult years are spent - obsession with V8s not just an Oz thing of course, you'll find the same in many parts of the world but less so in Europe generally (although by no means dead and buried in Europe either).

We had our own cars being designed and built here and V8s were the usual path for performance variants by the mid 70s, the wailing 6 in the Charger E38 notwithstanding.

Not to say that we don't enjoy a wailing V12, as often seen in GT racing but we grew up on Touring Cars, as they were the "big kid on the block" here, similarly to NASCAR in USA, in the same way that single seaters are the big kid on the block in Europe. Even when single seater racing was still strong here, F5000 was the leading formula and loved as much for the sound and fury of the engines as much as anything else. Can only think of one V12 touring car that raced here (XJS) and while strongly followed and liked, it simply didn't have the same following that the home-grown cars had.

[benny41]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

My last though is how lucky my favourite motorsport is speedway, no resemblance to road car politics at all. Sprintcars with 900hp 410ci V8 Engines, Late Models with wild wedge bodies and 450ci engines.

In the US dirt tracks are flourishing, while NASCAR is trying to work out where it all went wrong. Even in Australia, Speedway venues have great competitor numbers and thousands attend events each week. Why because the formula is simple, Loud + Fast + No Gimmicks = Entertainment = Fans

Its an interesting comparison some of the top end of speedway is what i would call semi professional but its primarily funded as an owner/driver setup. Its similar to what the early days of Supercars was. They main difference is that the early days of supercars had some manufacturer support which we havent seen in speedway.

The other key differences speedway has is that it doesnt have a tv deal to feed in money at the top end to turn the sport fully professional in the top tier classes. Nor do those classes have the bargaining power with tracks to demand big dollars to race. The fact there are 70+ divisions across the country doesn't help this.

Perhaps that is why it is having a bit of a resurgence in some areas as each team doesnt have 10 engineers analyzing each miniscule part of data, which makes the racing less predictable. And i agree that its loud fast and has no gimmicks which certainly has its appeal.

Id argue that speedway in this country isnt traveling as well as it once was. We are about to loose parramatta , we have recently lost adelaide and you can sort of see the writing on the wall for archerfield. I think there are some real challenges ahead for the sport.

Bringing this back to Supercars the category made the decision to become professional many years ago and i dont think that there is an easy way to unwind that, so it is going to continue to be what it is until it falls over. Its come to far to come back to a semi professional sport.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by benny41

Its an interesting comparison some of the top end of speedway is what i would call semi professional but its primarily funded as an owner/driver setup. Its similar to what the early days of Supercars was. They main difference is that the early days of supercars had some manufacturer support which we havent seen in speedway.

The other key differences speedway has is that it doesnt have a tv deal to feed in money at the top end to turn the sport fully professional in the top tier classes. Nor do those classes have the bargaining power with tracks to demand big dollars to race. The fact there are 70+ divisions across the country doesn't help this.

Perhaps that is why it is having a bit of a resurgence in some areas as each team doesnt have 10 engineers analyzing each miniscule part of data, which makes the racing less predictable. And i agree that its loud fast and has no gimmicks which certainly has its appeal.

Id argue that speedway in this country isnt traveling as well as it once was. We are about to loose parramatta , we have recently lost adelaide and you can sort of see the writing on the wall for archerfield. I think there are some real challenges ahead for the sport.

Bringing this back to Supercars the category made the decision to become professional many years ago and i dont think that there is an easy way to unwind that, so it is going to continue to be what it is until it falls over. Its come to far to come back to a semi professional sport.

The “category” made the decision to become professional?

[benny41]

Originally Posted by one five five

The “category” made the decision to become professional?

By bringing in franchise agreements , big tv money, expectation on teams ect the series became professional. Ultimately a bunch of decisions led to this

[V8 Fireworks]

Speedcafe make some excellent points. It would be prudent to make sure the Gen 3 chassis is a good match to the shape of the Nissan Z and Toyota Supra.

A line-up of suitably balance-of-performanced:
- Mustang V8
- Camaro V8
- Z V6 twin-turbo
- Supra Inline-Six twin-turbo
https://www.speedcafe.com/torquecafe...percars-gen-3/

Would be a good, balanced mixture of vehicles to interest a wide range of fans -- it will be crucial to set a maximum of 6-8 per vehicle type to prevent a lop-sided field.

As a measure of goodwill, Supercars should pay for the development of the Z and Supra bodystyles... They could always use V8 engines too, if turbo sixes are "all too hard".

[one five five]

Originally Posted by benny41

By bringing in franchise agreements , big tv money, expectation on teams ect the series became professional. Ultimately a bunch of decisions led to this

There was already professional teams and drivers before franchises etc became in vogue

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by one five five

There was already professional teams and drivers before franchises etc became in vogue

Planet Mork racers were told in no uncertain terms to go away, which is just outrageous don't you think?

[V8 Fireworks]

The future?


The cars exist from relevant manufacturers, yet Supercars refuses to engage with them. A simple balance-of-performance between COTF Gen 3 & GT3 would be the perfect way to attract a wide variety of relevant manufacturers... How hard can it be?

In action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPT3GGyIsC8 The monotonous drone of the low-revving BMW S58 twin-turbo is really not *that* unpleasant.

It would be the perfect opportunity to adopt a new rear wheel for the Gen 3 cars:
M4 front tyre: 300/660-18 > so pretty much the same size as the existing Supercars Dunlop (295/680-18 IIRC)
M4 rear tyre: 330/710-18 > a nice wider rear tyre for use with new 18x13 rear wheels

[one five five]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Planet Mork racers were told in no uncertain terms to go away, which is just outrageous don't you think?

Yes, completely outrageous and showed a complete utter disrespect for what had gone before them

But they did the same with Bathurst too.....

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The future?

Another with the 'fan-favourite' engine type of 8 reciprocating pistons arranged in a vee with a swept area not exceeding 5000cc:


It's an old-thing, but BOP can make anything competitive... a great way to get Lexus & Toyota enthusiasts interested in the Supercars series.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

I do like the idea of involving the BMW M4, Toyota Supra and Nissan Z. They fit in with the Chev Camaro and Ford Mustang.

I guess there is the big reason they do no not want to go down the GT3 path. From what i understand GT3 cars are extremely expensive and very hard to repair after accidents. Therefore would a professional team running GT3 cars as often as V8 Supercars require a spare car or two so they can make all races.

Also what are the running costs of a professional GT3 car per km vs a V8 supercar?


I still think a class with similar specs to a MARC car, but with a V8 supercar engine would be cheaper to run and be as faster if not faster than now.

[Juarez Jed]

The teams seem to want to keep the engineering level high with Supercars so despite the constant calls for cost-cutting I don't think TA2 would ever be accepted, although they are a fallback option if the series ever found itself in even worse financial stress I guess.
Common sense would suggest a MARC car with Mustang/Camaro/ Euro & Asian bodyshell & drivetrain adaptability would be the way to go.
This should have been sorted out while all the teams were sitting around in quarantine months back.
Maybe it has been and no-one is saying ?

[mayhem]

Totally agree, have said it from the start, the MARC platform is almost perfect: fast, relatively cheap, reliable.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Planet Mork racers were told in no uncertain terms to go away, which is just outrageous don't you think?

If you think Morks cars threw some shade on professionalism, you'd hate to have seen Brian Walden's entry into the Great race in 2007...