Specialist Components - Typhoon ECU

[tristancliffe]

Does anyone have any experience with this ECU? They are based in Wymondham, Norfolk (which is quite local to us), and we are probably going to be using them next year.

A few local companies put us on to them, but I have yet to find any independent reviews or opinions of their ECU (good or bad).

Surely someone here has one on their car, and can form an opinion for me?

Their website is here if you don't know who/what I'm talking about.

[Rubinho]

What engine are you building and which class will it compete in?

[Rubinho]

Originally Posted by their website

Please note that the ECU is not supplied with connectors and they are not available to puchase separately. Complete harnesses are available from us either to a standard specification or to your own custom requirements.

Not being able to do my own engine loom, or at least choose my own loom builder, would have me worried.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Rubinho

What engine are you building and which class will it compete in?

In what way are your questions relevent to the choice of an ECU? Please explain?

[Notso Swift]

At the end of the day the system is only ever as good as the tuner...

Is it acutally theirs or is it built by someone else for them (I bet it is)
The biggest question is how perfect the spark and injector timeing is, and frankly, I am not sure how you (or me) can actually verify that.
Especially if you are running very high revs or an engine that is stressed

Software interface is important for some people. (intuitiveness)
I run an Autronic and at this the system is not very good.., the system is built by engineers for engineers! Where something like a MoTeC is much easier to use, but not actually better at any thing. And you pay a bit for that (especially when you start ticking option boxes that are already on the Autronic...)

[tristancliffe]

It's for a Dallara F3 running a standard Toyota 3S-GE engine in "Monoposto Spec" (my picture on the left at the time of writing). Not that that makes a blind bit of difference to the discussion.

Yes, we are a bit concerned about the wiring loom, but I guess they are just covering their back in a way, rather than letting any old bloke fit the loom and them blame the ECU when it all starts smoking...

No idea if they actually make it themselves or not. I know they write their own software for it, but maybe that's normal with ECUs. There isn't a download link to play with the software - hell, there isn't even a download link to a manual!!

With a limited website, and opinions only from biased people (i.e. them or companies closely related to them or working with them) I thought that someone who's used the product might have an idea of whether we ought to.

According to a few people, it's far better than an Omex (what we have at the moment). But I'm not qualified to decide if I believe them or not.

As a side topic - they claim they can do sequential injection with just a crank position sensor. Apparently the ECU can work out what cycle each cylinder is on, presumably by very sensistive sensing of RPM/Crank Position whilst switching fuel on/off? Again, I'm not really qualified to know how impossible/normal/unlikely/pointless this is

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

It's for a Dallara F3 running a standard Toyota 3S-GE engine in "Monoposto Spec" (my picture on the left at the time of writing). Not that that makes a blind bit of difference to the discussion.

Yes, we are a bit concerned about the wiring loom, but I guess they are just covering their back in a way, rather than letting any old bloke fit the loom and them blame the ECU when it all starts smoking...

No idea if they actually make it themselves or not. I know they write their own software for it, but maybe that's normal with ECUs. There isn't a download link to play with the software - hell, there isn't even a download link to a manual!!

With a limited website, and opinions only from biased people (i.e. them or companies closely related to them or working with them) I thought that someone who's used the product might have an idea of whether we ought to.

According to a few people, it's far better than an Omex (what we have at the moment). But I'm not qualified to decide if I believe them or not.

As a side topic - they claim they can do sequential injection with just a crank position sensor. Apparently the ECU can work out what cycle each cylinder is on, presumably by very sensistive sensing of RPM/Crank Position whilst switching fuel on/off? Again, I'm not really qualified to know how impossible/normal/unlikely/pointless this is

Tristian, the sequential fuel injection is only likely to occurr at low fuel demand sites on the fuel map - trailing or part throttle. At full throttle and anywhere that the engine is making real power it is unlikely the injectors would be flowing enough fuel to run in sequential mode. In short, sequential mode may be good for fuel economy on road cars but really isn't relevent on race engines. How they achieve this without a cam sensor is also a bit of a mystery..... Frankly I don't believe it is possible. Sequential ignition is a bit of a red herring - there is absolutely nothing to be gained over wasted spark ignition.

If it is supposed to be better than Omex, I would ask for a detailed explanation of WHY it is better than an Omex. It may have more features and functions, but maybe ones you don't really need (like sequential injection!)

It maybe just that it is easier to map than an Omex - which is important - but you will find loads of people with the skill and experience to programme an Omex - how wide is the choice of dynos with Typhoon-experience mappers? That would be key to me making an ECU choice. The mapping software requires a dongle - and as you say there is no 'demo' available to help you, or your chosen 'mapper' - to evaluate that side of things. I would definitely ask for a demo version to evaluate their claims before deciding to use this ECU over any other.

I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that they won't provide an ECU connector separately - it i highly unlikely to be a bespoke design so you could purchase one somehwere, if you wanted to make (or have made) your own loom. What I would be concern me is if they wouldn't provide the pin designations of the connector - that would suggest to me they only want you to use their loom, and that's a bit 'Bill Gates' to me....

Some features are under development - features which are already available from OMEX, DTA, Emerald, Motec, KMS, Pectel, PI and many others I'm sure.

If they are sponsoring you - then that is a different matter - go for it if you are confident they will back you all the way. You are already a winner - you don't want to be going backwards!

p.s. this ECU doesn't seem to offer any data logging capability. That is minus marks from me.

[AT_Power]

FYI,

A look at their website reveals "The SC Typhoon Engine Managament System is developed entirely by SC at our UK base" and the image of the board shows it says "Specialist Components" on it, so yes it is their own product.

AFAIK they don't mind professionals making a loom, but they are (understandably) weary of a home made loom causing engine running issues, which would be blamed on the ECU.

Which ECU is better is a matter of preference for most people as they arn't building LMP engines (technically which is better usually doesn't figure in actual engine performance as the mapper is the weak link). There is a demo software available but it isn't freely distributed to protect their intellectual property.

Also note the website may be out of date and some features may be available which arn't listed on there - as with a lot of ECU's - improvements are ongoing. But the ECU is able to output to CAN - and most serious people will have a seperate data logger so any ECU logging is redundant.

RE the sequential injection. This isn't a problem, the ECU can essentially guess which phase the cylinders are on - if it guesses wrong the engine will attempt to stall, then it simply switches to the other option, once established into 720 mode you don't need a cam sensor. But agreed it is a pointless exercise as there are no power gains - in fact SC tend to build their looms to use a coilpack for wasted spark and use batch injection. But I suppose that this is something people look for when speccing up an ECU to use?

I could give you some places to ask about the ECU Tristian you have my email. It is still mostly unknown so I would doubt someone on here is a user, but you never know. I only found this as I was looking to see if anyone took any nice pictures from the PMW show in Cologne last week. I thought I could add some info to this thread.

Thanks,

John.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

There is a demo software available but it isn't freely distributed to protect their intellectual property.

I don't see how making demo software readily available threatens there IP - unless the interface is something truly revolutionary - in which case they should register patents. Is it something really special? Or is this just hype?

I also don't agree that separate data logging is the ideal - these days it should be integrated into any decent ECU as it is so easy to implement (just add a bit more, very cheap, memory). Most top end ECUs, never mind professional ones, include data logging - so you can have it on your track day Clio, or your LMP....

[AT_Power]

I don't think there is anything revolutionary (it is quite nice though and has some unique features with real thought going into it), but I understand that he feels a lot of hard work went into it, he just doesn't want to hand it out freely. Would be a shame to see something you worked hard on (and are essentially selling as a business) to pop up being sold by someone else with someone elses logo on it.

Afaik there are some very clever things happening with the CAN/USB data transfer that I don't fully understand, and possibly it is the invisible part of the software he wants to protect. There may be patents, I recall something along those lines, but that isn't 100% guarentee that someone won't copy it - especially if it's background code that you can't see.

SC themselves are the best people to ask directly for detailed information.

Hope that helps,

John.

RE: The data logging - I don't know the specifics, it may well be able to log the engine parameters on a time based log for a decent ammount of time, but this isn't what I would call "data logging". Data logging is using a track beacon, g sensors, steering pot etc. It's all time to develop the software, which is the limitation.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

FYI,

A look at their website reveals "The SC Typhoon Engine Managament System is developed entirely by SC at our UK base" and the image of the board shows it says "Specialist Components" on it, so yes it is their own product.

Sorry, it doesn't say that at all, it says 100% DESIGNED, that is not the same thing.

Originally Posted by AT_Power

AFAIK they don't mind professionals making a loom, but they are (understandably) weary of a home made loom causing engine running issues, which would be blamed on the ECU.

I think most would agree with them in principle, especially with some of the monkeys that work on cars, but most units do come with an unfinished loom and the correct (ie Calibrated) sensors

Originally Posted by AT_Power

Which ECU is better is a matter of preference for most people as they arn't building LMP engines (technically which is better usually doesn't figure in actual engine performance as the mapper is the weak link). There is a demo software available but it isn't freely distributed to protect their intellectual property.

Absolutely, that is why your tuner should be involved with any decisions and he should be comfortable with the product and software. Which is the very first opinion I offered

Originally Posted by AT_Power

Also note the website may be out of date and some features may be available which arn't listed on there - as with a lot of ECU's - improvements are ongoing. But the ECU is able to output to CAN - and most serious people will have a seperate data logger so any ECU logging is redundant.

That is cool, but a lot of people also want their system to multi task to minimise costs, so it is something that tristancliffe should consider if he doesn't have a separate unit.

Originally Posted by AT_Power

RE the sequential injection. This isn't a problem, the ECU can essentially guess which phase the cylinders are on - if it guesses wrong the engine will attempt to stall, then it simply switches to the other option, once established into 720 mode you don't need a cam sensor. But agreed it is a pointless exercise as there are no power gains - in fact SC tend to build their looms to use a coilpack for wasted spark and use batch injection. But I suppose that this is something people look for when speccing up an ECU to use?

OK, here I am having a serious problem, so the ECU is GUESSING the timing, but not only for the fuel because good ECU's also use the cam timing to continually adjust spark and fuel on both lag and lead.
Now, my car runs sequential right up to 8000 rpm, and in order to do that I use monster injectors, which means very fine control, so for some of us this is important. Before I went to a top quality ECU I had BIG problems with variable controls and it cost me many, many motors, OK I run turbo, so it is a lot more sensitive to something going wrong, and less chance to recover once any detonation starts, but for some of us it make a difference. For a 3SGE NA running to mid 7’s with no variable cam control and a normal (say up to 240 hp spec I can see any of this being an issue. But for my motor with over 200hp/litre…

Originally Posted by AT_Power

I could give you some places to ask about the ECU Tristian you have my email. It is still mostly unknown so I would doubt someone on here is a user, but you never know. I only found this as I was looking to see if anyone took any nice pictures from the PMW show in Cologne last week. I thought I could add some info to this thread.

Thanks,

John.

You probably should disclose any association publicly. (I am guessing you are from the same AT Power that does the ITB for them) When someone creates an account and waxes lyrical about a product and it is their first 2 posts it starts ringing bells to me, but I am a cynic.
All that said, that doesn't take anything away from the potential of the system for tristancliffe needs. It actually seems to be fairly well hought out in its design from a hardware point of view, (except that sequential on a single position sensor, which is nt relevant for most people)
tristancliffe, if they are reasonably local why don't you organise to go an visit them, they should be able to offer a few references as well, more important, when you talk to these guys you may get a good feel for the level of sales verus engineering. And don't get me wrong on that, a company like MoTeC is exceptional at sales and marketing, but they back it up as well (and it only costs you a leg…). Make sure you follow the references, especially for professional shops who have had experiences with multiple systems.

[XKRacer]

Just out of curiosity as you are based in Norfolk like me why didn't you think of trying an Emerald K3?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

I don't think there is anything revolutionary (it is quite nice though and has some unique features with real thought going into it), but I understand that he feels a lot of hard work went into it, he just doesn't want to hand it out freely. Would be a shame to see something you worked hard on (and are essentially selling as a business) to pop up being sold by someone else with someone elses logo on it.

Afaik there are some very clever things happening with the CAN/USB data transfer that I don't fully understand

In my opinion such 'secrecy' will not be sustainable for very long. Once a few units are out there and the software gets discussed by users on the internet - probably with screen shots too - the cat will be out of the bag. For example, if Tristian does get one and is impressed, I am sure he will be back to tell us why it's so good and what features and functions separate the SC ECU and software from all the others! A technical review in a magazine will blow the lid off in a similar way.

I think it would be far better to publicise all the bells and whistles of the software as well as the ECU and make sure everyone knows that SC came up with the bright ideas first. Demo software is demo software - it is a simulation of the interface with the ECU that the mapper will see and reveals how easy and flexible the mapping will be, but without the possibility of connecting with and programming a real ECU. Reverse engineering the code is very unlikely so that investment will be protected anyway, but the 'good ideas' will be picked up on with or without the demo software being generally available.

The list of features shows that SC already have 'copied' the ideas of Marelli, Bosch, GEMS, Motec, Pectel, Pi, Emerald, Omex and all the others and they better get used to the idea that their ideas will be copied anyway - unless protected by patents which they are prepared to defend in the courts. If an ECU and the software has been sold and found it's way to the far east you can bet it will be copied anyway.

As for the CAN/USB data transfer, other ECU manufacturers (DTA for one) offer the same facility so it is not an exclusive feature. This was pretty inevitable; with the demise of serial ports on laptops something has to be done to make communication via the USB port work. That either means having a USB port on the ECU - or an interface to the CAN bus.

[Rubinho]

Originally Posted by phoenix

In what way are your questions relevent to the choice of an ECU? Please explain?

It's extremely relevant as it defines budget and necessary features of the ECU. If you're building a simple engine this ECU may well be fine, if you need TC, anti-lag, launch control, gearbox control, have esoteric sensor requirements, a large number of cylinders etc etc. then it might not.

[AT_Power]

I won't answer all the questions because it would further the idea that I'm "waxing lyrical". The easiest thing to do for questions is to email them direct RE: specific engines.

All I tried to do was answer a couple of questions. I registered as AT Power so no one would accuse me of "waxing lyrical" as a third party when some would argue that I'm not (even though I don't profit in any way from SC's sales). Personally I've used Emerald, Life F88, Motec, MBE, EFi, MS and probably others I've forgot. The Typhoon is a nice unit and well worth a look imo.

I'll finish with what SC always tell me "the ECU will do whatever you want" (drive by wire, LC, TC, pit lane limiter, etc etc). They're new on the block and are very busy so if the website doesn't list a feature you need the best thing to do is email/call them and ask, you'll probably find it's available.

Thanks for your time.

John.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Rubinho

It's extremely relevant as it defines budget and necessary features of the ECU. If you're building a simple engine this ECU may well be fine, if you need TC, anti-lag, launch control, gearbox control, have esoteric sensor requirements, a large number of cylinders etc etc. then it might not.

In that case, I'm running a 2 litre Lancia turbo engine in LMA, so what is your advice?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

I won't answer all the questions because it would further the idea that I'm "waxing lyrical". The easiest thing to do for questions is to email them direct RE: specific engines.

All I tried to do was answer a couple of questions. I registered as AT Power so no one would accuse me of "waxing lyrical" as a third party when some would argue that I'm not (even though I don't profit in any way from SC's sales). Personally I've used Emerald, Life F88, Motec, MBE, EFi, MS and probably others I've forgot. The Typhoon is a nice unit and well worth a look imo.

I'll finish with what SC always tell me "the ECU will do whatever you want" (drive by wire, LC, TC, pit lane limiter, etc etc). They're new on the block and are very busy so if the website doesn't list a feature you need the best thing to do is email/call them and ask, you'll probably find it's available.

Thanks for your time.

John.

Well said. I might well give the SC offering a look IF I could see and try the demo software so I could make a comparison with other ECUs on the market.

I see no point in emailing them - particularly as you have said they "are very busy" and so probably wouldn't have the time to answer my endless questions - when a trial of the demo software would answer 90% of my questions.

[AT_Power]

Phoenix, thanks for the support. Maybe you can twist their arm into sending a copy out to you? I know that everything gets out eventually anyway, but I think they are trying to hold onto their baby as long as possible.

All the best for LMA next year.

John.

[Specialist_Components]

Hello all,

Thanks for your interest in the SC Typhoon Engine Management System. I'm Simon from SC, I developed the ECU in its entirety and would like take this opportunity to answer some of the questions and comments from this thread.

The main issue that you guys seem to be having is that there isn't a link to download the demo software on our website. There are many reasons why we don't do this:

• We don't have the bandwidth support on our website to allow uncontrolled free downloads
• There is no version control providing the demo this way, and this could leave people running and distributing out of date software. We are constantly developing the PC tools and want to make sure that all of our customers have the most appropriate version.
• There are many configurations of the tool, it is highly flexible. As we have versions for everything from our basic ignition system, through high-end motorsport engine management to our unique common rail diesel systems we need to ensure that our customers have the relevant version.
• We prefer personal service! We are not holding back the demo or stopping anyone from having it. But we believe that we can offer a better service if people drop us an email asking for the demo with a few questions about the system and how suitable it is for their application. We are always busy, but it rarely takes longer than 24 hours to reply to an email with some words and the demo software.

We have indeed 100% designed and developed the Typhoon ourselves, I don't know how to make this any clearer on our website. I can understand why people would be wary as there are so many copies and derivatives of systems around at the moment. Omex, AEM and GEMS are all developed and supported by the same company (GEMS) for example. But if anyone who isn't sure wants to call in to our office I would be happy to show them the ECU hardware schematics, firmware and VC source code etc.

No we don't have internal data logging in the ECU, this was a decision that we made early on. We are experts in engine control and have concentrated on that area to make it what we believe to be the best product at its price point. Storing the data isn't a problem, but creating a professional data analysis tool is. Plus, as John pointed out, these days you would expect GPS, 2 axis g sensors, track beacons and displays as a minimum with any data logging system and that is best left to a separate system. There are many available on the market today at low cost and our ECUs will communicate over CANbus with most of them.

The sequential injection without cam sensor isn't magic or rocket science. It does require some slightly clever algorithms and calibration but Production Fords have been doing it for years, so we certainly can't patent it. I'm not going to spell out how to do it so that others can copy it, they'll have to work it out for themselves like I did! But it absolutely isn't guessed, it's measured.

If you have any further questions or comments, please PM me or give me a call on 01953 859785 and I'll be happy to chat about the system.

Regards
Simon

[tristancliffe]

The point of this thread was not to question, belittle or criticise the ECU, the team behind the ECU, any associated companies or persons, or the technology involved. It wasn't even to ascertain whether or not the specifics of the ECU were right for us. It was merely to discover if anyone else has experience of this ECU in a race environment - and it would seem that nobody here has.

If I was buying a TV I'd probably try to find out if anyone else had bought one, and what they thought of it. If I was buying a car I'd tend to read reviews and roadtests of that model. If I'm choosing a plumber I'd probably use opinions of his work as the basis for choosing him. But I'm in the market for an ECU, and I thought it was a reasonable and fair thing to do, to find out what other people thought.

As you know, we know of one other racer using this ECU (in a similar car), and his experiences with the ECU have been positive.

If I have specific questions I'd come directly to you straight away (and indeed, we have had specific questions, and we did come straight to you). But I was after general feedback from 'the masses'.

I hope this thread didn't offend (it certainly wasn't meant to), and as Martin said I'll pop in later in the week to see you.

Regarding the specific points from above - I'd love to try the software if I may. I don't do the mapping, but I would be the guy at the races that has to fault find in the event of a problem, and being comfortable with the software (even if I don't actually make any changes, other than check the timing offsets [or equivalent], calibrate throttle positions, and re-upload the proper map 'just in case') is part of that. Logging - you already know I don't need in-ECU logging (short of the luxury of having a CAN link to the Racepak logger). Sequential - Martin and I were impressed with your description of the sequential injection without a cam sensor, which is why I mentioned it as being a 'clever aspect'. It's usefulness to us wasn't in question (I'll leave that to the experts at the time of mapping!), and as I stated I'm not qualified to state whether it's useful or pointless for our application.

Apologies for any offence caused.

[Rubinho]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

I'll finish with what SC always tell me "the ECU will do whatever you want" (drive by wire, LC, TC, pit lane limiter, etc etc). They're new on the block and are very busy so if the website doesn't list a feature you need the best thing to do is email/call them and ask, you'll probably find it's available.

That's nice if you can afford to be a test bed for somebody's strategies although you might prefer to buy something with the strategies you need built in and tested.

I'd certainly not want to be the first person to use an FBW control strategy which was knocked up.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Rubinho

That's nice if you can afford to be a test bed for somebody's strategies although you might prefer to buy something with the strategies you need built in and tested.

I'd certainly not want to be the first person to use an FBW control strategy which was knocked up.

Rubhino - I am still waiting for you to tell me what ECU I should be running..... see above.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

The point of this thread was not to question, belittle or criticise the ECU, the team behind the ECU, any associated companies or persons, or the technology involved. It wasn't even to ascertain whether or not the specifics of the ECU were right for us. It was merely to discover if anyone else has experience of this ECU in a race environment - and it would seem that nobody here has.

If I was buying a TV I'd probably try to find out if anyone else had bought one, and what they thought of it. If I was buying a car I'd tend to read reviews and roadtests of that model. If I'm choosing a plumber I'd probably use opinions of his work as the basis for choosing him. But I'm in the market for an ECU, and I thought it was a reasonable and fair thing to do, to find out what other people thought.

As you know, we know of one other racer using this ECU (in a similar car), and his experiences with the ECU have been positive.

If I have specific questions I'd come directly to you straight away (and indeed, we have had specific questions, and we did come straight to you). But I was after general feedback from 'the masses'.

I hope this thread didn't offend (it certainly wasn't meant to), and as Martin said I'll pop in later in the week to see you.

Regarding the specific points from above - I'd love to try the software if I may. I don't do the mapping, but I would be the guy at the races that has to fault find in the event of a problem, and being comfortable with the software (even if I don't actually make any changes, other than check the timing offsets [or equivalent], calibrate throttle positions, and re-upload the proper map 'just in case') is part of that. Logging - you already know I don't need in-ECU logging (short of the luxury of having a CAN link to the Racepak logger). Sequential - Martin and I were impressed with your description of the sequential injection without a cam sensor, which is why I mentioned it as being a 'clever aspect'. It's usefulness to us wasn't in question (I'll leave that to the experts at the time of mapping!), and as I stated I'm not qualified to state whether it's useful or pointless for our application.

Apologies for any offence caused.

Well said tristancliffe

From my position, 20,000km away I only asked questions that I would ask my self. As people can see in at no time has any one questioned the product, the exception being the sequential injectors on 1 sensor, which has not been explained, but as I said it is not relevant to most people, 2 signals per 720 deg is 2 signals, regardless of how fancy the algorythm is the same calculations applied with 8 signals /720 must be more accurate. (BTW, SC the fact that something is used on a road car is not at all relevant)

I would suggest that if you look at this part of the forum (Tech) you will find there is nothing other than racers helping other racers, that is one of the reasons some of us do not venture into some of the more emotional area’s, people have their opinions but they tend to be more “balanced”

By the looks of it SC and tristiancliffe have now connected which is a great start in assessing any product, just need to talk to a few independents with experience over multiple systems and job will be done

Cheers

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by AT_Power

Phoenix, thanks for the support. Maybe you can twist their arm into sending a copy out to you? I know that everything gets out eventually anyway, but I think they are trying to hold onto their baby as long as possible.

All the best for LMA next year.

John.

I received an email yesterday saying that LMA has pulled their sponsorship after 10 years - so this offers a good opportunity to SC and AT to sponsor a race series based on road cars. How about it, John?

[Porscheman]

I got an ECU for the BMW S54 Engine from SC for my BMW race car and i must say that its a very impressive piece of kit thats as good or better than anything else thats out there but at a very reasonable and fair price and i will be getting any ecu that i need in the future from these guys

The guys are also very helpful with the wiring etc and i would highly recomend them to anybody

Mark