Roll cage Manufacturer question?

[roco]

Hey guys, ive been a member for over a year but dont really post, just read the forums but i cant find anything on this subject, so just a quick question about roll cage manufacturers and builders. I know that the MSA and FIA regulate roll cage quality through scrutineering when a car is loged and at events, but is there any governing body that regulates the cage manufacturers/builders, im not talking omp or sparco as they are homologated but more the small private cage companys and fabricators. ive seen so many cars at scrutiny fail because of a badly built cage, and the person is left out of pocket having to probably cut that one out and get it done properly again, and even cars at the races with way below quality cages that to be honest would kill someone if they were in a crash. roll cages are to save lives in the event of an accident and i dont know how some of these cage builders sleep at night knowing they put something in a car that would definitely not hold up and probably kill the driver quicker with bars knocking around in a crash! so is there a governing body that regulates these cage builders? it would be great peace of mind and much easyer for racers to be able to go to an approved cage builder knowing that what they pay for is of minimum standard to save their lives! any help appreciated, thanks.

[MGDavid]

Cage has to satisfy the scrutineer that it meets section K of the BB.
You make some pretty serious allegations, what is behind your question exactly?

[roco]

Im not making any allegations,, im simply stating that i have seen people with brand new cars, fitted with brand new cages, turn up to scrutiny and be failed as the cage wasnt up to standard. that person after spending their hard erned money now has to go and get it fixed or done again properly, which means they miss racing, costing money and hassle, all im asking is there a governing body that regulates the cage builders so that if a cage builder is approved by them then a customer knows that the cage they are buying meets a minimum spec and has a better chance of passing scrutiny! basically like electricians or any other trade has to be, you see it on their vans, reci approved, or rac approved, ect.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by roco

.......ive seen so many cars at scrutiny fail because of a badly built cage....... even cars at the races with way below quality cages that to be honest would kill someone if they were in a crash.......
i dont know how some of these cage builders sleep at night knowing they put something in a car that would definitely not hold up and probably kill the driver .......

this reads all very sensationalist, evidence please!

If you want a cage of guaranteed quality, buy an FIA homologated cage from the usual suspects, they are all listed on the FIA website.

[GolddustMini]

I think the old adage (sp?) you buy cheap you buy twice seems to fit nicely here. proper research of a company would usually result in selecting the right manufacturer/fitter to ensure the job is done correct. Also id hazard a guess that any reputable company who fitted a cage that then failed scrutineering would resolve the issue themselves rather than leaving the competitor out of pocket.

perhaps this whole thread could be turned upside down, the competitor should do thier research to ensure that they select a reputable company to carry out the manufacture/fitment for them, especially given that its the competitors safety that is hinging on its performance. im sure there are crooks in every business who will do a half cocked job, you carry out reasearch to ensure that you do not end up giving them your hard earned penny's

[roco]

so basically my answer is no. theres no governing body over cage manufacturers, the person has to do their own research into whos good and whos not, instead of just looking for a simple qualification or quality approval of some kind.


@MGdavid: ok, here is your evidence, i do not know who built it or who passed it but this cage was cut out of a race car last week, it had done few years of racing and even had an inspection sticker from 2011 season. i have seen too many cases like this over the years. i am speaking from personal experience, not Chinese whispers from the pub.















looks fine from underneath,







and heres the inspection sticker,





now im not trying to start anything, i havent made any allegations as to make an allegation you have to name someone or some company which i have done neither. i am however speaking from first hand experience and i think that a governing body or a minimum qualification to build cages would be a good thing, hence my question of is there one all ready that i dont know about.

[vjay48]

I think this is a strange thread? I dont know of anyone who has had a car fail scrutineering because of the cage? There are not that many people making cages,most of those invovled had some connection with John Aley/Safety Devices etc in the past. I have known scrutineers made reccomdations,also some are welded better than others. There quite specific rules re spec and installation from RACMSA,if these are followed there are not any problems. I think the thought that the principals of roll cage companies do not sleep at night worrying about the safety of there customers using their products is bizzare!

[MGDavid]

thanks for the pics, that's a good example; now I'm not a welder, I'm not even an engineer or a fitter or even in the motor trade but I can tell that's dreadful welding, lacks penetration in places and in others is non-existent. And even where it's probably OK strength-wise it's not pretty.
Old adage 'if it looks right it probably is'.
But the owner/driver of the car it came from must have been happy to drive it, so either he's blind (how did he get a licence?) or he's not worried about his own safety and never checked / ignored it. Either way, that's up to him. Come to think of it - maybe he did it himself!
As I said in post #4 there are approved cage manufacturers and they are listed on the 'net.... and if one wants bespoke on a tight budget then all the usual buying processes apply - ask around for recommendations, talk to fellow racers, look at other cars, ask questions, examine, check etc etc. Just like finding a builder or plumber or decorator for home really.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by vjay48

.......... I dont know of anyone who has had a car fail scrutineering because of the cage? ......

Ahem, a not-so-funny story; I was at Spa last month with CSCC for an Inter-series race; a very modern posh Porsche 911 thingy with all the right bits, air jacks etc you get the opicture. Well the factory-fitted cage failed scrutineering because where the two front leg sections met the main hoop it was not welded all round the circumference of the join. The cage is very close-fitted to the shell and they had missed the bit you can't get at between the upper part of the tube and the roof panel. The only solution was to cut two fag-packet-sized sections of roof out, weld up the cage and cover the holes with gaffer tape! Never seen anything like it, apparently it came from the factory like it, moral of the story is believe nothing and nobody but your own eyes!

[graham bahr]

i would imagine that cage was a weld together kit from a reputable company which was put together by a 3rd party, i can think of at least one cage manufacture who would sell a cage complete with "approved" sticker, they no longer sell them like that, you dont get sticker now until until you send a sample weld back, an improvement i guess, but it hardly proves the cages is installed and welded correctly

[Turby]

In the UK, rally cars require MSA log books and a thorough inspection of the cage including 360 welded joints is made. For UK race cars no log book is required and the only time these things get checked is during pre-race scrutineering when there is precious little time for a thorough check of everything.

[terence]

Welding of that grade is appalling,must have been Back street Berts!. Quite simply if you cannot weld,dont practice on a cage,welding like that would probably have been done by a six year old! Just as well it did fail,the consequences of if the car had passed scrutineering,crashed/rolled injuring the driver are huge,to say the least.

[MGDavid]

I see there's a bit on dodgy cage welding in the latest MSA news - if it was the OP who raised it then well done!

[roco]

this cage was passed and raced for a couple years. it was just sold to a new owner who decided to take it out and do it properly.ive come accross several examples like this and id bet theres more out there. thats why i think theres a need for some type of inspector on the cage manufactures/fitters before scrutineering. by the time a car/cage sees scrutineers the person would already have been riped off. i do agree that people should shop around for quality and reputation but truth is in todays economy they just go with the cheepest price. this topic isnt really going anywhere. it was just a question to see if there was already an inspector or governing body that i didnt know about. i thank you all for your input.

[Peter Mallett]

I had a rather swoopy new cage put in my Capri over the winter. Someone in somerset. Nicely welded, great design and powder coated for neatness. It was around £1500.

[Notso Swift]

We have a system for ROPS where you must have the cage individually inspected (logbook inspection) and it involves a very through check, if you are not a licensed supplier that includes ultrasonic tests for weld density (hand held device)
If it is a material other than CDS you need a engineers certificate with a stress analysis. Only very limited Scriuts can do the sign off if it is a home built cage (like 6 in the country), while even the pro built ones need the scruit to be a certain level to OK, and they come with a full certificate of description and effectively a warranty from the builder as to quality.. the sort of warranty that would see you charged with manslaughter by the coroner if it was seen to be wanting
THe cage is also matched to the chassis, so there is no pulling it out and using it again. if a car is in a major, the logbook will be noted and the cage must be re-inspected/certified

On the flip side, there is no way in a pink fit you could get a cage done for less than 3000 GBP equivalent, and most are close to 5K

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

On the flip side, there is no way in a pink fit you could get a cage done for less than 3000 GBP equivalent, and most are close to 5K

Well Peter managed it and so did we with our Escort - and like Peter we're very happy with the cage and quality of the installation.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed, although a fully welded in cage is a lot different and performs a different job too, which is why they cost so much more. We aren't allowed to run fully welded in cages in Group 1 or FIA App K. But we can in Group A .

Conversely, if anyone is paying more than 1.5-2k for a bolted in six point cage then I'd think they're being ripped off. Safety item or not.

BTW the company's name is Caged.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

We have a system for ROPS where you must have the cage individually inspected (logbook inspection) and it involves a very through check, if you are not a licensed supplier that includes ultrasonic tests for weld density (hand held device)
If it is a material other than CDS you need a engineers certificate with a stress analysis. Only very limited Scriuts can do the sign off if it is a home built cage (like 6 in the country), while even the pro built ones need the scruit to be a certain level to OK, and they come with a full certificate of description and effectively a warranty from the builder as to quality.. the sort of warranty that would see you charged with manslaughter by the coroner if it was seen to be wanting
THe cage is also matched to the chassis, so there is no pulling it out and using it again. if a car is in a major, the logbook will be noted and the cage must be re-inspected/certified

On the flip side, there is no way in a pink fit you could get a cage done for less than 3000 GBP equivalent, and most are close to 5K

Try Safety Devices,something like £750 for a six point bolt in,similar price for a weld-in.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Agreed, although a fully welded in cage is a lot different and performs a different job too, which is why they cost so much more. We aren't allowed to run fully welded in cages in Group 1 or FIA App K. But we can in Group A .

Conversely, if anyone is paying more than 1.5-2k for a bolted in six point cage then I'd think they're being ripped off. Safety item or not.

That is the point, we are basically FIA spec for all circuit races

Stupidly we have a grandfather clause that allows cars originally logbooked to continue as they were. So in some circumstances you get people paying a premium for a pre-99 build shell with a basic 6 point alloy cage, the lightest possible option

[terence]

I hope there are no alloy cages out there.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I hope there are no alloy cages out there.

Agreed - alloy cages are a no go, historic or not I thought? I know there's an RS200 that competes in stage rallies that had to have the cage replaced for that very reason.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I hope there are no alloy cages out there.

I once saw an XJS with one, what's the problem with them?
One year at Croft a man turned up with a convertible XJS with a cage made from scaffolding, the rest of the car sort of matched as well and just looked plain embarrassing. The owner wasn't allowed to race but things got quite heated in scrutineering and partly to placate and partly I think they felt sorry for him as he'd travelled a long way they allowed him to do a few laps behind the course car at lunch time.

[elitemotorsport]

You have to bare in mind that in terms of cost there are two ways to go with a cage.

A certified cage can be made from a smaller/lighter tube, because it gets stress analysed to prove that it can handle the job, and that process costs about £3,500 i'm told. So the cage manufacturer has to recoup that outlay on the items that they then sell. So a one of certified cage could be £5,000.

Or you can go with making it from the specified tube dimensions/specs in the Blue book, which is a very OTT tube and therefore much heavier, but, as a result doesn't need certifying. A cage manufacturer would then charge a lot less for the cage as they have no cerification costs to include.

Caged for example would make a certified Caterham cage for about £750 because they've made hundreds and lost the certification costs across that number of cages. If you went for un-certified Blue Book cage then it's likely to be the same cost. If you want them to do a one off and have it certified, i would guess at £5,000 being totally justifiable.

All i know from my experience with Caged is that whatever Safety Devices charge £750 for, its unlikely to be much more from Caged, unless there is a certification issue to take into account.

[gt917]

As a matter of interest Porsche 917s ran alloy cages, and still do.

I did mine in steel to keep scrutineers off my back, but powder coated it to look like alloy. Boy, is it heavy !!!!