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Old 15 Sep 2021, 03:42 (Ref:4073990)   #226
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post

The second is the notion that you can effectively pass in Rettifilo and that T2 is possible for two cars to RACE around side b side without someone being pushed off or disadvantaged. Its NOT. Not under racing conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5yhZdF8SI

5:12 onwards. Pretty fair and comparable pass from last year. Sainz was a little further along the road than Verstappen this year but Kimi opened his steering slightly and gave room.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 03:46 (Ref:4073991)   #227
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Thanks, Skam85, and that's a good comparison to see how Hamilton was pretty aggressive in how he squeezed Verstappen. It was a 'back off or we crash' philosophy, which has become too prevalent, but is partly a consequence of circuit design.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 05:47 (Ref:4074000)   #228
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Thanks, Skam85, and that's a good comparison to see how Hamilton was pretty aggressive in how he squeezed Verstappen. It was a 'back off or we crash' philosophy, which has become too prevalent, but is partly a consequence of circuit design.
Absolutely right. Neither backed down but Hamilton at no point opened his steering. It was probably 52/48 Max's fault so what's done is done. I personally love this drama between the two of them and hope it continues right down until the last lap of Abu Dhabi. Not only that, these clashes give guys at other teams their time to shine which is always good to see.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 07:03 (Ref:4074005)   #229
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5yhZdF8SI

5:12 onwards. Pretty fair and comparable pass from last year. Sainz was a little further along the road than Verstappen this year but Kimi opened his steering slightly and gave room.
Yes both good clean passes but I'd stand by my comments.
In both cases the car on the outside was fully alongside. (I'm including Stroll at the 2nd chicane)
Raikkonen on the inside therefore had to give room and was unable to take the chicane at his normal RACING speed.

The drivers being overtaking had their speed through the chicane compromised because they were being overtaken
In effect both overtakes began under braking, before turning in. So both over takes were well under way before they entered the chicane.
It can be done but it requires the co-operation of the driver being overtaken.

This is nothing like the HAM/Max situation on Sunday. In both cases in 2020 the overtaking car was well forward of where Max was relative to Ham.
Sainz at Rettifilo was even slightly forward of the car on the inside. He HAD to be given room

Last edited by Teretonga; 15 Sep 2021 at 07:15.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 07:16 (Ref:4074007)   #230
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Yes both good clean passes but I'd stand by my comments.
In both cases the car on the outside was fully alongside. (I'm including Stroll at the 2nd chicane)
Raikkonen on the inside therefore had to give room and was unable to take the chicane at his normal RACING speed.

The drivers being overtaking had their speed through the chicane compromised because they were being overtaken
In effect both overtakes began under braking, before turning in. So both over takes were well under way before they entered the chicane.
It can be done but it requires the co-operation of the driver being overtaken.

This is nothing like the HAM/Max situation on Sunday. In both cases in 2020 the overtaking car was well forward of where Max was relative to Ham.
Sainz at Rettifilo was even slightly forward of the car on the inside. He HAD to be given room
Yes but your statement was that two cars cannot physically race side by side into the first chicane without someone going off track. That video clearly shows they can.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 07:41 (Ref:4074011)   #231
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Yes but your statement was that two cars cannot physically race side by side into the first chicane without someone going off track. That video clearly shows they can.
Yeah, maybe, but perhaps not when you have the two leading contenders for the WDC going into that chicane, neither of whom believe they should be giving quarter to the other - particularly in Max's case. He is, without doubt, a 'no quarter' driver.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 08:09 (Ref:4074020)   #232
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Yes but your statement was that two cars cannot physically race side by side into the first chicane without someone going off track. That video clearly shows they can.
Well think about what I actually wrote.

I said the car being overtaken had their speed through the chicane compromised. That should be obvious.
I also noted that Sainz and Stroll both were 100% alongside the other car. In racing terms the overtaking has been partially completed while they are still in a straight line.
They are well forward of where they need to be to recognize that the action has begun. In Rettifilo Kimi knew Sainz was there and was at least totally alongside.

Sainz was also faster, much faster over the race distance. Kimi is also committed to the corner but he's not going to interfere because he knows he's being overtaken.
Is Kimi RACING Carlos Sainz. No. He is being overtaken by a faster car that has had a tyre change He makes room for him in a difficult part of the course.
When I use the term 'racing' I mean competing. Kimi was not competing for that piece of the track with Carlos. Yes they were in the same race but operating at different levels.
Stroll on the other hand at Chicane two which is a little more open really did extremely well to get alongside and then turn in and complete the over take by the time they exited. But again he had cooperation from the other car.

My whole purpose in answering the people in this discussion is to help them understand how the FIA system actually works.
It is based on a set of principles that are actually simple and effective but like most things aren't written down because every incident is taken in isolation and there is no way a written set of regulations could adequately cover every point. They need some flexibility to handle the variations.

But from the comments here most people assume that what they are seeing is the same set of circumstances, and its not the same set of circumstances. Max on Hamilton is NOTHING like Sainz on Kimi a year earlier.
Not at all.
And my comment about it not being possible? You would have to look through everything Ive said in the last three days to put it all in context.....
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 08:36 (Ref:4074022)   #233
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Thanks, Skam85, and that's a good comparison to see how Hamilton was pretty aggressive in how he squeezed Verstappen. It was a 'back off or we crash' philosophy, which has become too prevalent, but is partly a consequence of circuit design.
i do think that there is a case for applying the car width racing room philosophy rigidly. In this instance, if Hamilton had given Verstappen a car width on the inside of the corner and Verstappen runs into him, Verstappen's fault, no car width Hamilton's fault. This would still prevent someone dive bombing down the inside from miles back, because all that would be left is a car width, slide wide and face the penalties, cut the other car's nose off penalty.
This would cut down on incidents, and promote racing between cars imo.
We now have the means to assess these incidents, so I guess blame and running out of talent would be clearly determinable if there was a hard standard.

Perhaps penalties should be assessed by a standing panel/ court who assess the penalties that should apply and take points away for transgressions, this way you will end up with rational and clear and reasoned decisions, rather than knee jerk penalties assessed in the heat of the moment and applied to people without a means of redress.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 08:49 (Ref:4074023)   #234
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i do think that there is a case for applying the car width racing room philosophy rigidly. In this instance, if Hamilton had given Verstappen a car width on the inside of the corner and Verstappen runs into him, Verstappen's fault, no car width Hamilton's fault. This would still prevent someone dive bombing down the inside from miles back, because all that would be left is a car width, slide wide and face the penalties, cut the other car's nose off penalty.
This would cut down on incidents, and promote racing between cars imo.
We now have the means to assess these incidents, so I guess blame and running out of talent would be clearly determinable if there was a hard standard.

Perhaps penalties should be assessed by a standing panel/ court who assess the penalties that should apply and take points away for transgressions, this way you will end up with rational and clear and reasoned decisions, rather than knee jerk penalties assessed in the heat of the moment and applied to people without a means of redress.
If people knew how much time and effort goes into making the right decision they would understand how rarely anything is a knee jerk reaction by a stewards panel, and that is just from my experience at a national level.
In F1 nothing is a knee jerk reaction.
You may disagree with some decisions as we all do but it is not s group of blokes making off the cuff decisions with no justification.
The process at F1 level is rigorous, far more so than most of the people here on ten tenths realize.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:10 (Ref:4074028)   #235
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Yes but your statement was that two cars cannot physically race side by side into the first chicane without someone going off track. That video clearly shows they can.
I would also accept that there are corners where drivers' lines and speed are compromised during an overtake - the question is where that acceptable point is and how the other driver compromises you (e.g. opening steering, not turning in on their normal apex to defend, etc).
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:21 (Ref:4074033)   #236
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I much preferred the older T1 chicane at Monza. No idea why it was changed as it’s certainly a less interesting corner now.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:21 (Ref:4074034)   #237
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Can't help but feel that what we're seeing with Lewis and Max, is what could have happened with Senna and Schumacher, had Senna not died. After all the scenarios in both are the same. The established great vs the young pretender trying to take away trying to dethrone him
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:28 (Ref:4074038)   #238
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If people knew how much time and effort goes into making the right decision they would understand how rarely anything is a knee jerk reaction by a stewards panel, and that is just from my experience at a national level.
In F1 nothing is a knee jerk reaction.
You may disagree with some decisions as we all do but it is not s group of blokes making off the cuff decisions with no justification.
The process at F1 level is rigorous, far more so than most of the people here on ten tenths realize.
There was a howler with Bottas jumping the start a while ago.
The stewards said he did not jump the start, yet the in car video evidence clearly showed he both jumped the start and did not stop again at any stage.
This would not happen in if there was more time to make the decison.

Mazepin trying to kill Mick at Monaco by turning into him on the straight as he came up to overtake is another incident that should not have esvcaped notice.

The stewards are human and time pressure and overload results in wrong decisions.

Another joke is having to bring evidence that was not available to the stewards at the time of a decision to an appeal. At times the evidence may have been available to the stewards, but they clearly did not look at it, or misinterpreted said information. This should be admissible at an appeal.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:34 (Ref:4074040)   #239
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I would also accept that there are corners where drivers' lines and speed are compromised during an overtake - the question is where that acceptable point is and how the other driver compromises you (e.g. opening steering, not turning in on their normal apex to defend, etc).
Good question.
In Supercars it is the B pillar, the back of the drivers door, when you are coming in on the inside. So 'alongside' doesn't actually occur until your nose is alongside the drivers door. Until then he doesn't have to give you room.
In F1 you would need to be well alongside for peripheral vision so I'd think you'd need to to have your front wheels, at least in front of the side radiators, almost wheel to wheel.

In karting the rule of thumb was your nose cone level with the front wheels. Any further back you shouldn't have been in there.

SKAM85's Monza 2020 highlights showed Sainz on Kimi and Sainz on the outside at 100% alongside before turn in and I would think that was almost certain if the overtake was going to be successful.

View in modern cars is not great and if he cant see you chances aren't so good. The outside car also needs a performance advantage Such as Sainz had over Kimi at Monza 2020.

And that was in a straight line, before turn in, so Kimi knew he was being overtaken, and it wasn't difficult for either of them. But that is why there is so much confusion here about leaving racing room, particularly at Rettifilo.

What people are saying is alongside is NOT alongside under the principles of racing. Because brakes are so efficient and road holding so strong what was acceptable in the 80's in F1 isn't workable now.
Efficiency has its negative side and the standards have changed.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:49 (Ref:4074042)   #240
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Mazepin trying to kill Mick at Monaco by turning into him on the straight as he came up to overtake is another incident that should not have esvcaped notice.
I don't think he was trying to do that, was he? The use of over-emotive descriptions really doesn't help that much. The move may have been crass but to imply more is just plain daft.
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