Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Casper

It is not viable as a business case.

For who? Which stakeholder would suffer as a business if ATCC adopted TCR regulations?

As I see it from this thread (and please correct if I have got this incorrect):

The organisers of the series that inherited the ATCC title opted to market the series as 'Supercars'.
The series promoted the Ford vs Holden rivalry, and became dependent on those two manufacturers supporting the series and its regulations.
The manufacturers' support to the series dwindled, as their own product ranges became less aligned with the regulations.

Which leaves us in the situation where the organisers are now in a position that they need to find a set of regulations that interests enough teams to enter cars with enough financial backing to produce a large enough field for competition? If that is correct - why does TCR not make a viable alternative if enough teams can find enough financial backing to enter cars?

[billybanana]

Couldn't give a stuff about manufacturer support. That shipped has sailed. The series needs to strictly focus on teams and drivers. Don't particularly care what they drive either TBH. Give me the best drivers, most professional teams and good racing, I'll be watching.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For who? Which stakeholder would suffer as a business if ATCC adopted TCR regulations?

As I see it from this thread (and please correct if I have got this incorrect):

The organisers of the series that inherited the ATCC title opted to market the series as 'Supercars'.
The series promoted the Ford vs Holden rivalry, and became dependent on those two manufacturers supporting the series and its regulations.
The manufacturers' support to the series dwindled, as their own product ranges became less aligned with the regulations.

Which leaves us in the situation where the organisers are now in a position that they need to find a set of regulations that interests enough teams to enter cars with enough financial backing to produce a large enough field for competition? If that is correct - why does TCR not make a viable alternative if enough teams can find enough financial backing to enter cars?

First issue is most teams have lots of $$$ tied up in the current engine formula. Second is does the series want to leave what it is known for, which is v8 car based racing for 4 cylinder racing. Will the drivers be happy racing a much slower car. Will fans keep watching or turn off in droves.

Supercars have announced the new regulations which will be based on a spaceframe chassis with either mustang or camaro bodies. Running V8 engines. All the teams currently are onboard for this change.

[S griffin]

You have to say that costs need to go down a notch or two. No need to do anything radical. The racing is fine. Hopefully the 2022 cars can retain the Supercar look whilst being more affordable

I hope they keep the V8s while retaining the Supercar look. Will be interesting to see

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Not a single team on the supercars grid wants to replace their series formula with TCR. Why cant TCR loyalists just build their series without trying to destroy Supercars.

Its clear that Supercars management and the teams believe that they need to retain a V8 engine with appropriate body wrapped around it. The Camaro was sold here as recently as last year, and their are rumors GM will sell it here again under their performance brand. If Supercars use that body, its even more likely the Camaro will be sold here again.

Link to rumours? No one likes change but it is inevitable. I will put this here for others to comment on, if the Mustang and Camaro were not available right now what other cars do you think would be used. Half of this scenario is predicted to happen within the first half of the current decade and if Ford stop the current Mustang and go down the electrical battery path with the new car they have labelled as a Mustang what then?

TCR has about zero chance of being popular in this country due to the national dislike of small displacement racing.

[S griffin]

I can’t see anything to back up the rumours. We can accept change, but only if necessary. They’ve got enough cars on the market to keep this formula going for a while. I am sure they can come up with a contingency plan to make sure the next formula is as close to the current one as possible. After all, we still get great racing

No I can’t see TCR becoming the top tin top formula in Oz either. But it has it’s own series and could grow to be quite popular

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Casper

TCR has about zero chance of being popular in this country due to the national dislike of small displacement racing.

National dislike of small displacement racing, or a hangover from a war where the fan base was told to dislike small displacement racing?

I recall a “live and let live” mentality amongst the fans during 1995 and 1996.

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

The Holden vs Ford rivalry wont die if the manufacturers aren't putting money into the sport, as long as the Mustang get raced and the Camaro replaces the commodore. Infact alot of fans think the new cars look awesome for 2022.

The Holden vs Ford will die after 2021

It is now just a question of whether the fanbase will accept “Chevrolet vs Ford” as the same tribal war going forward. The optimists seems to think the Holden faithful will just back a Camaro as if nothing has changed.

Did they barrack for Kevin Bartlett?

Who are these “a lot of fans” that “think the new cars look awesome for 2022” and how many is “a lot”?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

TCR has about zero chance of being popular in this country due to the national dislike of small displacement racing.

Lol. Formula One was still plenty popular with 'milk carton' 2.4L engines, likewise MotoGP with 1L donks (heck it even drew a crowd when they were 500cc two-strokes!).

Given the natural progression of Supercars losing their now superfluous street circuit events (Adelaide 500, likely Gold Coast and Newcastle to follow in being cancelled), going to a more low-key cost-effective formula like TCR where manufacturers like MG are already waiting in the wings would be very sensible.

MG has a surprisingly long history of four-door models! Complete with those supposedly 'unpopular' BMC A-series small displacement engines, not withstanding that said engine has indeed won the Bathurst 500 in Mini Cooper form (you say unpopular small displacement, I say lovely small displacement!).





Why reinvent the wheel, when the potential is already there to bring in iconic manufacturers like MG, Honda, Alfa Romeo and Hyundai!?

[mayhem]

Kia denies the bi-annual clickbait on Speedcafe, saying they won't be Gen 3-ing.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by one five five

National dislike of small displacement racing, or a hangover from a war where the fan base was told to dislike small displacement racing?

I recall a “live and let live” mentality amongst the fans during 1995 and 1996.




The Holden vs Ford will die after 2021

It is now just a question of whether the fanbase will accept “Chevrolet vs Ford” as the same tribal war going forward. The optimists seems to think the Holden faithful will just back a Camaro as if nothing has changed.

Did they barrack for Kevin Bartlett?

Who are these “a lot of fans” that “think the new cars look awesome for 2022” and how many is “a lot”?

Most v8 commodores for the last 20 years had chev engines. So Chev is recognised by most people here as aligned with holden. Lots of young crew during those 20 years who are now in their thirties and forties put chev badges on their commodores.

Not to mention how people put chev engines in old school monaros, kingswoods and toranas.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Lol. Formula One was still plenty popular with 'milk carton' 2.4L engines, likewise MotoGP with 1L donks (heck it even drew a crowd when they were 500cc two-strokes!).

Given the natural progression of Supercars losing their now superfluous street circuit events (Adelaide 500, likely Gold Coast and Newcastle to follow in being cancelled), going to a more low-key cost-effective formula like TCR where manufacturers like MG are already waiting in the wings would be very sensible.

MG has a surprisingly long history of four-door models! Complete with those supposedly 'unpopular' BMC A-series small displacement engines, not withstanding that said engine has indeed won the Bathurst 500 in Mini Cooper form (you say unpopular small displacement, I say lovely small displacement!).





Why reinvent the wheel, when the potential is already there to bring in iconic manufacturers like MG, Honda, Alfa Romeo and Hyundai!?

Why keep pushing for a 4cylinder format, when its clear Supercars management and teams want a V8 formula. TCR already exists for that series. I find it ironic I posted a thread about ARG's TCR and only 1 response. Seems their is barely any interest in that format at all.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Cars look awesome, cant wait to see a full field of 24.

[Tony C]

They look nicer than the current cars (Mustang esp) but it will be interesting to see if they can reduce the cost. COTF was supposed to do that but the 'committee' organising it had different ideas and ballsed it up.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Tony C

They look nicer than the current cars (Mustang esp) but it will be interesting to see if they can reduce the cost. COTF was supposed to do that but the 'committee' organising it had different ideas and ballsed it up.

Agreed

I hope this is Tony C former Supercars Boss

[one five five]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Why keep pushing for a 4cylinder format, when its clear Supercars management and teams want a V8 formula. TCR already exists for that series.

Go to YouTube and look up the final round of the 1990 ATCC, the crowd didn’t seem to mind four cylinder and six cylinder turbos there, as many fans at that meeting as any V8 event that occurred after

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

I find it ironic I posted a thread about ARG's TCR and only 1 response. Seems their is barely any interest in that format at all.

I would say most people are just not biting on the bait and feeding the troll....

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Agreed

I hope this is Tony C former Supercars Boss

No but I do live on the gold coast

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by one five five

Go to YouTube and look up the final round of the 1990 ATCC, the crowd didn’t seem to mind four cylinder and six cylinder turbos there, as many fans at that meeting as any V8 event that occurred after



I would say most people are just not biting on the bait and feeding the troll....

Actually, it was a thread to try and develop some discussion around ARG and their main series of TCR and S5000. Im a big fan of S5000 and hope they catch on big time here. TCR will be a good class on their bill and can provide drivers opportunities to maybe get a race in WTCR.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Of course TCR is a viable business case for the ATCC. The cars are fairly cheap to buy and very, very cheap to run... the cost savings compared to COTF would be substantial.

Sticker them up in Red Bull, Monster and so on liveries and throw 32+ professional drivers at it and it would be a lot of fun indeed.

If the likes of 888 and Tickford want to retain a fabrication business, they could homologate cars like the BMW 128ti or Ford Focus ST and have a worldwide marketplace to service.


The return of the Ultimate Driving Machine(TM) to the ATCC would be very welcome indeed!

Want to put some skin in the game and be an investor, I am sure with your conviction you already have done that??

[RED55]

[QUOTE=one five five;4013978]Go to YouTube and look up the final round of the 1990 ATCC, the crowd didn’t seem to mind four cylinder and six cylinder turbos there, as many fans at that meeting as any V8 event that occurred after



I would say most people are just not biting on the bait and feeding the

Close racing is all that people want .whatever the class .

[djr81]

Coyote for Gen 3, apparently. Story story here:
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/mot...stang-supercar

[Casper]

Originally Posted by djr81

Coyote for Gen 3, apparently. Story story here:
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/mot...stang-supercar

So it won't be a crate motor......

As for where the engine's come from? “It’s basically an engine that we’ll put together based on the Coyote,” Story adds.

They ought to stop stuffing aound with the internals, put a blower on it and call it job done.

[Juarez Jed]

Close racing is all that people want .whatever the class .[/QUOTE]


Sorry but that has proven to be historically incorrect in Australia.

Might as well hold the ATCC for Aussie Racing Cars if closeness is all that matters.

People like to see aspirational vehicles, preferably loud ones , that have heaps of power.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

People like to see aspirational vehicles, preferably loud ones , that have heaps of power.

Speaking of 'aspirational' vehicles, DTM have given up entirely and are just going to race bog-standard GT3 cars. Any thing else (e.g., more power, no ABS etc) was all too hard. Bog standard GT3 was all DTM as a struggling series could manage. Porsche and Audi flatly refused modifying their vehicles to a different spec without driver aids.

Really, Supercars and DTM should have agreed a common set of regulations, so that Mustangs and Camaros could race M4s, C63s, and RS5s. DTM needs proper regulations, while Supercars needs more manufacturers. That Supercars and DTM were unable to agree this for the benefit of both championships is quite inexplicable!

[Tja]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Speaking of 'aspirational' vehicles, DTM have given up entirely and are just going to race bog-standard GT3 cars. Any thing else (e.g., more power, no ABS etc) was all too hard. Bog standard GT3 was all DTM as a struggling series could manage. Porsche and Audi flatly refused modifying their vehicles to a different spec without driver aids.

Really, Supercars and DTM should have agreed a common set of regulations, so that Mustangs and Camaros could race M4s, C63s, and RS5s. DTM needs proper regulations, while Supercars needs more manufacturers. That Supercars and DTM were unable to agree this for the benefit of both championships is quite inexplicable!

I'm not sure there ever were any serious discussions about merging rulesets between DTM and Supercars. DTM has positioned itself to be a GT-like category years ago when they decided to align with Super GT.
The decision to go GT3 was forced when Audi announced they were leaving earlier this year. To keep going, they needed something that was available and financially more sensible than Class 1 right away. So what else was there for next season other than GT3? Gen2 is on its way out, Gen3 isn't available other than a few fancy drawings at the moment, so not an option. And the other way round, DTM wasn't (and isn't) ready with any kind of proposal for new regulations in the timeframe that Supercars desperately need - i.e. introduction by 2022.

The only slighty surprising announcment was DTM Electric that they showed yesterday. There isn't a lot of information around at the moment, but it seems they want to introduce it as a support series from 2023. My guess would be, they want to make it the main class around 2025 or so, but that's just speculation. Perhaps that'd be something for Supercars to keep on the radar for the future for whatever may come after Gen3. Will it be picked up by the manufacturers, what will the cars look like etc.

[Casper]

DTM looking at electric motors is a sign of the times but SC hasn't worked that out yet. There is nothing wrong with a good V8 but the time has been called on IC motors much to my regret. Old farts hanging on to the past springs to mind, they should at least be considering how long they can sustain the present format and begin to look at how change is going to happen. BTW, I am an old fart so I understand why they don't want to even look at change. DTM are announcing it now so they can attract manufacturers back into the series and GT3 is only a place holder until then.