Cicale Can-Am cars

[dereklola]

Dan - thx - I looked long and hard at the pic to convince myself whether it was an RT2 or RT4 - but still can't decide. Having an early example of both I can report that the only difference (other than engine etc) is that the RT2 has a 2" longer fuel cell compartment. This translates into a 2" longer base to the rollover bar triangle in side view.

I'll accept your explanation - otherwise our previous conclusions need revisiting!

Derek

[dereklola]

OK - here's the gen on RT1-149. Tim Evans did indeed buy the Trueman car for the 1981 season.

Personal thought on RT1-1/2 designation. Looking through some race results recently I was momentarily confused by this entry "Ralt RT 1/2L/Red Roof Inns". Obviously it was meant to read "2L class" but it sure looked a little bit like "RT 1-1/2". Could this designation have originally been just a misread, or mistype, like I just did?

[allenbrown]

Hi Derek

You say Tim bought the Trueman car for 1981 and you mention "RT1-149". Did Tim tell you it was RT1-149? Do we know for sure it was RT1-149?

Also, in 1982, Trueman drove 'his old Cicale-Ralt' for a couple of races at the start of the season as he'd sold his 1981 car (the RT2) and his 1982 wasn't yet ready. Did Tim lend it (or sell it) back to him for 1982? Either way, did Tim remember what happened to his car after 1981?

Cicale definitely called his 1979 car the Ralt RT1½ but I agree the Evans designation could have been a mis-read.

Allen

[dereklola]

OK - herewegoagain

Conversation with Tim Evans, 26 July 04 - Tony Cicale drove his own Ralt RT1 in 1979. Made another one for Jim Trueman and they both ran under Red Roof banner for 1980. Tim bought the Jim Trueman car (not the Cicale car) in late-80/early-81 without the Hart engine. Fitted BDG engine and after losing partner/sponsor only made last three 1981 races - Riverside 4 Oct, Laguna Seca 11 Oct and Las Vegas 16 Oct. Car "sat" for most of 1982 but rented it back to Red Roof for Olivier Chandon to drive at Las Vega - but DNS. Car then sold to Kurt Roehrig but "He ran Atlantic not CanAm" - however I do see a result for Roehrig in an RT1 at Lime Rock 3 July 1983. Car eventually bought by Jim Bartel, vintage raced occasionally by son-in-law Craig Bennett, with Hart engine about 10 years ago, then sat again until bought this year by Peter McLaughlan.

Pretty certain this was car 149 - but will see if this can be confirmed.

re Jim Trueman driving the first two 1982 races in "his old Cicale Ralt" because his RT2 car was not ready - Tim is certain that this was not the car he bought so it must have been the original Cicale car.

I asked Tim if he knew what happened to this car - did it possibly go to Tom Foster and Chuck Billington out west in Oregan/Washington. He said he didn't think so - thinks they built their own car.

Now to Dick Guider - conversation 26 July 04 - Firstly it is MarGuay - with a G not a Q - and with a U - not sure why since the South American cat is spelled Margay. He bought the original blue 1978/79 body from Tony Cicale and mounted it on a March 782 chassis which he bought from Toleman after the Dougal/Henton 1979 F2 season. This means Cicale made new bodies for the two Red Roof cars for 1980. Dick drove the car in 1980 and 81; then was approached by Bertil Roos who drove it starting with Mid Ohio in 1982.

At this stage questions and answers got a bit confused so I'm going to share some pics with Dick on his later "pod" bodies. Seems there was a March based Marguay "pod" car and either same or similar body used on Bill Blackledge's RT2. Will report back later.

Derek

[Neptune]

Derek,

I was at mid-Ohio Canam race in '82 and i may have some photos, if you're interested. It will take some digging and no guarantee they'd be of the Cicale. I do remember Danny Sulivan spinning on 1st turn of 1st lap and jumping back into the fray against the marshalls direction and in front of the rest of the field.

It was also my introduction to SVRA, running a support race. How times have changed!

Roger

[dereklola]

Correction - sorry - my correction was wrong! Derek

[allenbrown]

Derek

Great detective work. Let's hope Peter McLaughlan can confirm the chassis number of this Trueman-Evans-Roehrig car.

The Guider car is also most interesting as it explains rather neatly why the car had a Cicale body but also places another ex-Toleman 782 in the US in 1980. Looks like Toleman got rid of all their old stock to the Can-Am circus every year.

I wonder if "Marguey" is "Mar" for March and "Gu" for Guider with the "ey" to make it pronouncable. Did you mean "Margu[b]a[.b]y" or should that 'a' have been a 'e'?

Having gone through photographs of "the later pod cars", as you call them, on Racing Sports Cars I can only see the Blackledge RT2 looking like that. Unless I'm missing something, there is just the Cicale-bodied car and the RT2 ever entered as Margueys. Have you spotted a second one anywhere?

Allen

[dereklola]

Allen

Just sending several emails with pics attached to Dick Guider - have date to talk with him in three hours - will respond again then.

Derek

[dereklola]

The sales document from Trueman to Evans quotes RT1-149. Not sure if serial tag is still on car or not - have asked.

Spelling - it is Marguey with the second vowel an E. Confirmed this with Dick Guider just now - confusion last night because he is a better talker than listener!

Interesting follow up on the original Marguey. He did indeed start with the body he bought from Tony Cicale. But later on modfied the nose to a shovel nose a la Frisbee - look carefully at the 1984 pic of him spinning at Mid Ohio. He also stated he went back to a small gearbox mounted wing - big improvement in drag he said. (Well he would wouldn't he!)

One more Cicale bodied car you might have missed is the Ralt RT4 of Peter Greenfield in 1984. See pic on racingsportscars.com. Note how extensions were added to cover the wider track. He bought this body directly from Tony. They are and were good friends - both live on Long Island.

Now to the Blackledge car - RT2-172. In 1980 this had the ugly body installed before shipment from UK - by a Cyril Mayhem - anyone know him? Old tel nos were (0)202871102 (work) and (0)42546339. The replacement body shown in 1981/82 was built by Blackledge's crew chief Dave Briedenback, whom he stole from Guider and who now works for Chip Ganassi's Target Indy car team. The car was still RT2-172 even though it is labelled a Marguey in some cases. Dick and Bill were friends by now and operating together as Elite Racing.

Finally, guess we're off Cicale by now, the white 6/82 Trueman car is a March (822?) with side pods made from the Gove/Trueman/later-Wachs car. These same pods, probably from second generation molds, were used for the 1984 March based Marquey driven by both Guider and Blackledge and entered by Elite Racing.

Over and out. Flame away. Derek

[allenbrown]

I'm a little surprised by the RT1-149 identity but let's see how that might have worked. It's fairly clear that Cicale's 1978 car was RT1-94 and I would presume that his 1979 car was RT1-149. So, if Trueman has RT1-149 in 1980, then we must assume Cicale built his own 1980 car out of the older RT1-94. That's not what I would have expected.

An alternative possibility is that Cicale used RT1-149 in 1980 and allocated the older RT1-94 to Trueman but then Trueman actually sold his teammate's car to Evans, not his own RT1-149. But that doesn't really ring true.

Trueman's early 1982 car must logically have been Cicale's own 1980 car - so RT1-94. That implies RT1-94 wasn't raced through 1981.

So then we get our next puzzle. John Graham first appears in his Midland Racing Cicale-Ralt at Laguna Seca and Caesars Palace in October 1981. Evans drives in the same race so Graham can't have RT1-149 and as he also drove at Mosport in June 1982 alongside RT1-94, this implies he didn't have RT1-94 either. So Graham's car appears to be a third Cicale-Ralt. Maybe bodywork bought from Cicale (as per Greenfield) or maybe I've got RT1-94 wrong.

And then the David Locke Cicale-March turns up at Mid-Ohio later on in June 1982. The Cicale bodywork seems to be multiplying!

Cyril Malem was a fabricator in Dorset building Formula Fords and trying his hand at bigger stuff - usually without huge success. It was Malem that built the BRM P230.

I'll think I'll take a closer look at the Mosport 1982 pictures. And the pictures of the 1984 Marguey.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Here's the 1984 Marguey, driven here by Blackledge at Mosport I 1984.



And to prove it's a different car, here's the "Marguey" Ralt RT2 at Mosport I 1982:



So I'll add a Marguey (Cicale-March) 1984 to my list. Can anyone tell me what sort of March that is? 822? 832? Derek - did Dick say where that 1984 car came from? I thought they might have acquired Roos' 1983 "Scandia B3", a March 822 I think, but the sidepods are quite different.

Here is that "Scandia":



But as I look at it again, the cockpit surround and mirrors are not standard March yet look quite similar between Marguey and Scandia. Same car with new sidepods?

Allen

PS All pictures borrowed from racingsportscars.com with gratitude.

[allenbrown]

Nice to see this thread again. Irvin Zwicker, Tim Evans chief crew from 1981, emailed me today to remind me that Evans Ralt RT1-1/2 had a Ford BDG, not a Hart. I had failed to update that after Derek's research.

Allen

[brahal]

Further to the Trueman car, this was one of three RT-1 Atlantic cars that Chip Mead and I ran in '78 with Pierre Phillips racing in the Labatts Atlantic series. Jim sponsored Chip in 1979/80 and then bought one of the RT-1s for his own use. Converted from Atlantic to Cicale body by Clay Filson who worked for me until now heading the F/BMW series here in the US. Clay fitted a Hart 420-S for Jim. Jim did sell car to Tim Evans as previously stated.

[allenbrown]

Hi Bobby

Thanks for that. Since I last posted on this thread the Trueman car had been located and found to be chassis 106, which we knew to be one of your team cars. I wasn't at all clear on how that had become a Can-Am car but your story makes everything fit into place.

Do you recall who had used that car? Was it your, Chip's or the spare? Or did the cars get swapped around?

Allen

[brahal]

I wished I could remember which chassis numbers I used in '78. We know 109 was my main car, but at Like Rock that year I was forced into the backup car after a huge shunt in practice. I ended up winning the race and can only surmise that since Chip used one car all year that 106 was my car for that race.

I went back to 109? for the rest of the year if I remember correctly. I will keep digging!

[RJ Nelkin]

Good story about Tony Cicale: Tony and his wife during the early years had a VW which was stolen......they were devistated....until it was returned with a note that read "You need this car more than I do" I was there on Long Island and have first hand knowledge that this is true.......RJ Nelkin

[RJ Nelkin]

Hey Bobby...............A Long time since.........RJ Nelkin
ps. Sometimes folks ask me about the Black Lola T-530 that was for Herb Caplan but Carl sold to us and why it was not our Colors...All the best to you and your family.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by brahal

I wished I could remember which chassis numbers I used in '78. We know 109 was my main car, but at Like Rock that year I was forced into the backup car after a huge shunt in practice. I ended up winning the race and can only surmise that since Chip used one car all year that 106 was my car for that race.

I went back to 109? for the rest of the year if I remember correctly. I will keep digging!

Bobby, according to the Ralt records the three RT1s sold to Phillips for 1978 were 106 [marked as blue with white cockpit] then 109 marked in records as dark blue/light blue, which is how your car shows up in pics, and then 129 [blue/white] delivered 18 May - which I guess was the spare car you ran at Lime Rock.
Bill Wagenblatt of Seattle has sent me quite a lot of photos from that Lime Rock race and it is clear that you have two different sets of bodywork, so I guess two cars.

I think that your two cars were sold to a dodgy organisation called BTG Racing 'Beat the Government' which quickly folded. Tim Fortner inherited the cars and ran them for a few years in California. I think one was sold to Ted and Nancy James and the other to Wyatt Gerrells [both in 1982] but have nothing on them after that.

Chris

[driftwood]

Ted and nancy james ran their RT1 in C sports races for many years

[dereklola]

Calling Chris Townsend for Ralt Book info. And Allen Brown or anyone else for expert info.

In this series about Cicale Ralt CanAm cars we have the following cars mentioned -
- RT1-94 to Tony Cicale for CanAm, del 1/78
- RT1-106 blue with white cockpit sold to P Phillips for 1978 Atlantic series - driver Chip Mead
- RT1-109 dark blue/light blue to same for Bobby Rahal
- RT1-129 blue/white to same for back-up, Rahal drove once at Lime Rock (he thought it was 106 but I think your corrected him to 129)
- RT1-149 to Cicale for CanAm, del 2/79

Other info -
- Racing Sports Cars has results etc for all the Cicale CanAm cars (Cicale, Trueman, Evans etc) but references only one chassis number which confusingly is RT1-108. So what is this?
- The Tim Evans invoice for buying Trueman's car refers to RT1-149 but car has no plate. So what is current thinking about which car this is? Bobby Rahal said that Trueman's car (converted to CanAm by Clay Filson who worked for him) was one of the three 1978 Phillips/Mead/Rahal cars.
- This ex-Evans car is currently being renovated and paint on the tub under the front roll bar (forward of cockpit) is light blue followed by red followed by black. The blue was in an area covered by the roll bar which was riveted on with original looking bucked rivets. I assume therefore that the original was light blue, followed by Cicale red, followed by black (to reduce reflections, make it look better, whatever). How does this light blue help? 94? 109? 149?

I keep trying to concentrate on renovating race cars and backing away from history - but once bitten - - - - - - -

Derek

[marc sproule]

I have pics of some of the cars talked about here in my Atlantic and Can Am sets.....

Atlantic......
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4668198...7623186773769/

Can Am......
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4668198...7623311345506/

Pretty sure I have pics of Cicale in the original car too. Will upload those when I get the time to dig into my archives for them.