[BTCC] Round Five, Croft 25-26 Jun, Races 13,14&15

[AJD]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Many drivers and team managers on the grid have commented that financial backing is easier to obtain from some sources because BTCC is hybrid.

The nature of the cars has pushed up the standard of driving in the series.

Yes, there are improvements to come in the application of HEMS, and we have already seen tweaks during the season.

Many bemoaned the use of option tyres and ballast. The performance is now all in the hands of the drivers, and the quality in the field is deep. So why be surprised when overtaking is difficult?

Overtaking is hard - so it should be. But the best drivers have, and do, find a way to overtake. The racing is smarter now - why does it need to be dumbed down?

Fully agree. It just needs time. It won't ever be perfect but then nothing ever is.

Unfortunately not everyone will be as open to giving it time. That's just the nature of it.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Well race one was dull.

Perhaps there were some stern instructions in the driver's briefing after Oulton Park. Usually we see a load of dives into the final hairpin but only remember seeing Patterson having a go there today.

Not to say the races were bad. Though I do believe changes could be made to the opening corners that would improve racing (one of the rare times I agree with something Shedden says!) It doesn't help that some of these tracks were designed in the times of much narrower cars.

[Sodemo]

What exactly did Dick Bennett’s say about the lack of overtaking? Anyone got a link?

[porsche962fan]

current standings

maybe Hill will have to support Turkington's bid soon ?

Tingram 195
Cook 192
Turkington 183
Sutton 171

Hill 154

Butcher 137

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Many drivers and team managers on the grid have commented that financial backing is easier to obtain from some sources because BTCC is hybrid.

The nature of the cars has pushed up the standard of driving in the series.

Yes, there are improvements to come in the application of HEMS, and we have already seen tweaks during the season.

Many bemoaned the use of option tyres and ballast. The performance is now all in the hands of the drivers, and the quality in the field is deep. So why be surprised when overtaking is difficult?

Overtaking is hard - so it should be. But the best drivers have, and do, find a way to overtake. The racing is smarter now - why does it need to be dumbed down?

Agree. I'd rather have races that some call boring (and some seem less action-packed than should) but that are professional with the best getting the best spots instead of gimmicks that make the series looks amateurish.

[tux]

I dunno tbh, it doesn't seem much different to me. Although i do think that hybrid has added nothing from a viewing stand point, not that i think it was meant to.

Seems to me you get two types of races. Processional and the ones where somebody can just drive past most of the field without much of a fight.

As for WTCR, dreadful, it wasn't good for a long time before the TCR rules but the TCR rules (in WTCR) have produced nothing but boring racing.

[antnee]

The intention of the rules to create very equal cars has resulted in the 'action' reducing. The top teams and drivers are all so close, that over-taking is difficult because it is hard to find enough speed differential in a suitable place. That, combined with the current rules for race 2 & 3 grids means the guys fighting for the championship aren't going to take many risks as it isn't worth ruining your weekend.

I think using 2nd fastest times from qualifying for the R2 grid would help things. It would stop an issue in R1 from destroying your whole weekend and also add some more natural shake-ups of the starting order.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by antnee

I think using 2nd fastest times from qualifying for the R2 grid would help things. It would stop an issue in R1 from destroying your whole weekend and also add some more natural shake-ups of the starting order.

That’s actually a superb idea to form the race 2 grid by the second fastest quali times, I’d support that 100%

[porsche962fan]

they could also add a JOKER , each driver is allowed to cut a certain chicane once during a race after lap 3 so he can easy pass , of course where tracks would allow such thing like Thruxton or Croft for example

[tux]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

That’s actually a superb idea to form the race 2 grid by the second fastest quali times, I’d support that 100%

Yep, this actually is a really good idea.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by AJD

It's the healthiest grids we've seen since the rules came in. Maybe not the quality throughout the field we would all like to see but it's healthy none the less.

And the championship battle (after 15 races) is closer than ever during the NGTC era.

For comparison (eventual winner in bold):

2022

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	3
3rd	12
4th	24
5th	41

2021

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	14
3rd	34
4th	43
5th	44

2020

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	16
3rd	32
4th	34
5th	42

2019

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	33
3rd	47
4th	48
5th	48

2018

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	19
3rd	35
4th	42
5th	44

2017

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	11
3rd	12
4th	20
5th	48

2016

Position	Gap to leader
1st	-
2nd	12
3rd	15
4th	37
5th	38
9th	52

Interestingly - whining about matters in the BTCC is not a new thing.
In 2016 after 15 races, the usual posts were about RWD needing to be pegged back and the driver in 9th having to sacrifice his title bid to help his teammate.

[coppice]

I spent the weekend there on one of my few excursions for modern racing . My thoughts -

-the cars are fast, well driven (with one exception) but sound horrible , struggle to overtake easily and , as is the norm have godawful livery . The exception was Plato , who I saw deliberately drive into a car overtaking him. Maybe it's what punters like ,but I don't .

- big , well behaved crowd (only one drunk) and less litter than usual. But Jesus , what is it with BTCC fans that even on a dry day they have to erect view- obstructing gazebos and , in one case , virtually a bloody marquee ?

- Porsche grid was thin , and racing poor ,with some real amateur hour stuff at the back . Why do we even have it ?

- F4 - just when you think single seaters can't sound any worse ... Quick though and looked a right handful over bumps. But like every slicks and wings single seater , overtaking wasn't easy, or common

- Ginettas were fab, almost like FF1600 races of yore , and the crowd responded to them more vocally than touring cars . Minis entertaining too .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by coppice

The exception was Plato , who I saw deliberately drive into a car overtaking him. Maybe it's what punters like ,but I don't .

True - some punters would see that as 'action'.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by coppice

The exception was Plato , who I saw deliberately drive into a car overtaking him. Maybe it's what punters like ,but I don't .

Was that the Morgan incident? It was hard to see from coverage on TV but from Morgans onboard it looked like he went off track (perhaps overtaking while doing that) and then came back on which is when Plato hit him.

Probably frustration (no excuse though) on Platos part otherwise. Those BTC cars look painfully slow under acceleration and people were driving past him on both sides.

Must be their problem though as there were other M-Sport cars who didn't seem to have the same issue.

[mick bennett]

Painful to watch on TV, in general a poor day.



Overtaking nearly impossible due to the awful circuit design. Dangerous as well, the only way to get a pass is to risk a very serious accident . Very lucky there was'nt a repeat of Thompson's recent accident It needs a major redesign or BTCC simply dont use it again please !!.



It has shown a problem with the hybrids too heavy and not enough power. Weak suspension why do they not allow to stronger tie bars ?



Porsche two races with 11 Cars or less. Tv Padding or what !! zzzzz


Well done to Lloyd !!

[coppice]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Was that the Morgan incident? It was hard to see from coverage on TV but from Morgans onboard it looked like he went off track (perhaps overtaking while doing that) and then came back on which is when Plato hit him.

Probably frustration (no excuse though) on Platos part otherwise. Those BTC cars look painfully slow under acceleration and people were driving past him on both sides.

Must be their problem though as there were other M-Sport cars who didn't seem to have the same issue.

Can't remember the other driver . But what happened was very clear - Plato was being overtaken under acceleration after the hairpin ;totally avoidably and unnecessarily he simply banged into into the car on his left. I found myself saying out loud 'you dirty b***d' ...


I disagree about 'painfully slow under acceleration ' - any tin top which laps Croft in the low twenties is very quick indeed .

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

they could also add a JOKER , each driver is allowed to cut a certain chicane once during a race after lap 3 so he can easy pass , of course where tracks would allow such thing like Thruxton or Croft for example

Ah yes, worked so well in WTCC.....

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

That’s actually a superb idea to form the race 2 grid by the second fastest quali times, I’d support that 100%

Go on then crmalcolm, what would the R2 grid have looked like with this?

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by coppice

- Porsche grid was thin , and racing poor ,with some real amateur hour stuff at the back . Why do we even have it ?

- F4 - just when you think single seaters can't sound any worse ... Quick though and looked a right handful over bumps. But like every slicks and wings single seater , overtaking wasn't easy, or common

- Ginettas were fab, almost like FF1600 races of yore , and the crowd responded to them more vocally than touring cars . Minis entertaining too .

I am a bit unimpressed with the supports this year. Feels like we're not seeing enough of the main ones - Porsches, MINI JCWs, Supercup - to be able to follow them properly.

At least we're not missing rounds with them on other support packages, but just seeing one race every other meeting - if we're lucky - with at least one on the Saturday that's not broadcast, I have no idea who's at the top of the standings, what happened last race, etc.

Feels like I've seen about 2 or 3 races of each and we're at the halfway point.

Especially when the replacements aren't much good - Ginetta GT5 is ok, but not on a weekend with the Juniors in the same car. Ditto GT Academy at Oulton with the Supercup also racing.

The little MINIs are ok but does feel too slow and amateur for the BTCC package, and more often than not results in long yellow-flag and red flag period (shocked it was green all the way yesterday!).

The less said about Porsche Sprint, the better...

F4 I think has been better this year (not a particularly high bar, to be fair...) but annoying to see two races on most Sundays (yes they have three races, but seems it's the MINIs gettijng the shaft every weekend.)

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

Painful to watch on TV, in general a poor day.



Overtaking nearly impossible due to the awful circuit design. Dangerous as well, the only way to get a pass is to risk a very serious accident . Very lucky there was'nt a repeat of Thompson's recent accident It needs a major redesign or BTCC simply dont use it again please !!.



It has shown a problem with the hybrids too heavy and not enough power. Weak suspension why do they not allow to stronger tie bars ?



Porsche two races with 11 Cars or less. Tv Padding or what !! zzzzz


Well done to Lloyd !!

I seem to remember hearing it said that the 'weak' toe-links are specifically designed to break and prevent more serious (and difficult to repair) damage to the subframes.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Go on then crmalcolm, what would the R2 grid have looked like with this?

I think,
Ingram pole.
Shedden 2nd.
Turkington 3rd.

[Sodemo]

The alternative could be to have two qualifying sessions of say 20 minutes each one after the other. I think starting race 2 in the finishing order of race 1 does nothing for the racing, also if you have a bad race 1, that's pretty much your weekend over.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

again go watch F1 if you want that, this is TOURING cars, it's supposed to be different and more (light) contact sport, otherwise what's the freaking point of its existence in the first place if you have F1, GTs etc

It's non-contact - the point is you watch drivers making the most of the machinery at their disposal to achieve the best result possible. Clean racing isn't boring - drivers punting the car ahead off in a braking area is boring.

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

the solution is to make more contact proof cars like the BTC and Super tourers were (when NGTC will be phased out) and to loosen up the rules a bit, now it's like they overregulate everything to death like Brussels bureaucrats do

The 'over regulation' keeps costs down and keeps the grid close - Super Touring allowed more freedom and looked what happened to that (and anything else where rules freedoms turns into a development arms race).

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

they could also add a JOKER , each driver is allowed to cut a certain chicane once during a race after lap 3 so he can easy pass , of course where tracks would allow such thing like Thruxton or Croft for example

Please no. Joker laps in rallycross don't work - they just break up the racing so I really wouldn't want to see them in touring cars.

Originally Posted by coppice

The exception was Plato , who I saw deliberately drive into a car overtaking him.

Possibly the least surprising thing ever

Originally Posted by coppice

- Ginettas were fab, almost like FF1600 races of yore , and the crowd responded to them more vocally than touring cars . Minis entertaining too .

The Ginettas (whichever flavour) seem to be consistently the best thing on the package.

[S griffin]

Well done to Lloyd, two wins after it looking like he might not be here after all. Good to see Colin getting strong results, on his boss' b'day too

Shedden deserved that R3 win after the bad luck he's had so far.

Nice to see Chilton up there in the top ten, he's been get a lot of criticism lately, so it's nice to see him turn things around

Title's really getting interesting now with a strong weekend from Tingram and damage limitation from Cookie

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Shedden passing a bunch of much slower cars doesn't prove anything, the major team boss has a point, it's not just him who thinks that





again go watch F1 if you want that, this is TOURING cars, it's supposed to be different and more (light) contact sport, otherwise what's the freaking point of its existence in the first place if you have F1, GTs etc



No

the solution is to make more contact proof cars like the BTC and Super tourers were (when NGTC will be phased out) and to loosen up the rules a bit, now it's like they overregulate everything to death like Brussels bureaucrats do

Sorry, as BertMk2 has already pointed out, circuit racing is deemed to be a no contact form of motorsport. I suggest that if you want to see cars biffing and bashing into each other, then go and watch stadium racing where you'll witness plenty. There was one class that was an exception to those rules which used current era road cars that were highly tuned and were no contact was permitted. The drivers of those cars were exceptional, the racing was really tight with overtaking even though the circuits were exceeding narrow and short, yet the cars would finish almost unscathed. This is my memory from the 70s and 80s at what was then my local track at Bovingdon.

As I have written before, it is driving standards that desperately need to be improved, with drivers respecting their competitors and appreciating that even the lightest of touches can result in huge repair bills. Possibly if each driver came individually responsible for paying the repair bills for contact that they caused to another car they might well stop their antics.