Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[S griffin]

Back then though the rules weren't quite as clear as they are today. Thankfully things have been mostly sorted out. We don't need this kind of controversy. Certainly there are still room for characters. But as you say different times for a lot of them

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

As to wether parity makes bad racing, I'm undecided. It certainly allows the better teams/drivers to shine, but I do believe it would become more processional. Maybe cars with no downforce, worse brakes, engines with less linear torque... anything that increases driver error, allowing a passing opportunity.

I've been watching some 1990s Supercars racing now and as much as it makes me sound like an old *******, it made for better racing "back in the old days"

There was nothing like the kind of refinement and data there is now, the cars were so much more basic, they handled much worse than they do now and needed to be manhandled, and H-pattern gearboxes and other things offered much more possibility for a driver error to change a result.

Which was entertaining... I might be having faulty memories here but didn't Skaife lose one of the championships to Marcos Ambrose because of a missed shift?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Mixer

There was nothing like the kind of refinement and data there is now, the cars were so much more basic, they handled much worse than they do now and needed to be manhandled, and H-pattern gearboxes and other things offered much more possibility for a driver error to change a result.

Hit the nail on the head above.

To put it broadly, less refinement =

* Cheaper. Less engineers, less data acquisition, simpler componentry etc.

* Better racing. Focus on driver talent, mistakes more common etc.


Anecdotally, the best racing I've been involved in was Subaru Endurance karting - everyones in the same equipment (almost ), karts are extremely simple compared to a Rotax/DD2, tires were adequate, usually bought second hand from the big boys. Definitely wasn't processional.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Compromised

, the best racing I've been involved in was Subaru Endurance karting - everyones in the same equipment (almost ), karts are extremely simple compared to a Rotax/DD2, tires were adequate, usually bought second hand from the big boys. Definitely wasn't processional.

Can’t argue about the Subaru Endurance Karting! Wonderful racing, huge grids especially in the last year of the engine in 2018, and just as good now in NSW with the Briggs 206 engine for enduros.

As for cars, I’m no fan of parity and dumbing down regulations, let people test and innovate, allow things to be different, keep the racing simple, and when one formula gets too expensive draw up a cheaper set of regs and go again. I’d rather five different sets of regs over a 25 year period than just one set of basic regs going for that long. Much more fresh and interesting.

Cars getting more and more the same every year, as well as race formats getting more and more ridiculous in the name of ‘parity’, is the reason my interest in Supercars continues to wane and wane year on year for a while now

[Casper]

It is inevitable that a tightly regulated class of racing is going to get boring. Innovation is what makes class racing interesting, sports sedans were like that in its heyday because people like Frank Gardner etc made it that way with innovation.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Casper

It is inevitable that a tightly regulated class of racing is going to get boring. Innovation is what makes class racing interesting, sports sedans were like that in its heyday because people like Frank Gardner etc made it that way with innovation.

I agree, but innovation rarely comes cheap and the cost to run a Supercar is already at the limit.

Also, we must remember this isn't a prototype series and even F1/MotoGP don't race true prototypes anymore - control this, regulated that etc.

Interestingly, I find F1 exceedingly boring. It's processional, no overtaking, very little driver error.

On the other hand, MotoGP always interests me, even when 93 walks away. My theory is because the bikes are so hard to ride, just watching them hot lap is exciting, overtaking isn't as crucial

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I agree, but innovation rarely comes cheap and the cost to run a Supercar is already at the limit.

Also, we must remember this isn't a prototype series and even F1/MotoGP don't race true prototypes anymore - control this, regulated that etc.

Interestingly, I find F1 exceedingly boring. It's processional, no overtaking, very little driver error.

On the other hand, MotoGP always interests me, even when 93 walks away. My theory is because the bikes are so hard to ride, just watching them hot lap is exciting, overtaking isn't as crucial

Moto GP racing is the best on earth, Its Insanely quick, brave and competitive.
I love it

[S griffin]

MotoGP has often kept it simple and while safety has improved no end, the sport hasn’t really changed out of sight from the beginning. No wonder it works so well and of course the riders can overcome their machinery

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

MotoGP has often kept it simple and while safety has improved no end, the sport hasn’t really changed out of sight from the beginning.

If MotoGP is so great, how come the Australian Superbike Championship is unpopular compared to the Supercars series?

Surely it's not the merely the use of production-based "super"bikes that deters spectators!?

[S griffin]

I don’t know, how good is the attendance for the WSBK Phillip Island race year on year?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If MotoGP is so great, how come the Australian Superbike Championship is unpopular compared to the Supercars series?

Surely it's not the merely the use of production-based "super"bikes that deters spectators!?

That's like saying why is Supercars so great, but Super 3 not as popular - chalk and cheese. Only the absolute die-hards would watch GP and ASBK (or all three if you consider WSBK)

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t know, how good is the attendance for the WSBK Phillip Island race year on year?

Australia is one of the few countries that has maintained strong attendance figures for WSBK.At a lot of the European rounds the crowd numbers are pitiful.Once upon a time WSBK was a much bigger crowd puller in England than Motorcycle Grand Prix racing but those days disappeared nearly 20 years ago.
WSBK at Phillip Island draws a considerably bigger crowd than Supercars ever did.
As for ASBK crowds attendances at all domestic road racing plummeted for good in the same year Australians got live coverage of Grand Prix racing.Make of that what you will.

[Casper]

One of the causes of excessive costs in SC is the regulatory framework it works in. It costs stupid amounts of money to get any very small gain where if the regulations were more open to innovation then a bright simple idea might get e team a very big competitive edge. Either way it costs a lot of money and there is no answer to that except find more. I bet if they halved the cost then there would still be complaints.

If any of the teams are complaining about costs they should get out, they knew the rules and anyone who has been involved in racing a car will tell you the same...motor racing is a good way to send yourself broke, if you can't afford to blow large amounts of money don't do it. The only better way I can think of is ocean racing in big yachts.

I saw a young driver persuade his father who had many millions of dollars to play with to buy the son a formula VEE. Two races in the father sold the car as he could see how much money it was going to cost to be competitive. I did a similar thing, my son wanted to buy a car and no way was I going to finance it, he sold his road car to go racing and soon worked out the realities of it.

[bluesport]

I'd like to see some improved production racing with cars like Mustang, camaro, dodge charger, bimmers, mercs, audi etc, there's plenty of performance machinery out there.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If MotoGP is so great, how come the Australian Superbike Championship is unpopular compared to the Supercars series?

Surely it's not the merely the use of production-based "super"bikes that deters spectators!?

Because like F1, Moto GP is the pinnacle. But if your not into bikes then you wont understand.

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If MotoGP is so great, how come the Australian Superbike Championship is unpopular compared to the Supercars series?

Surely it's not the merely the use of production-based "super"bikes that deters spectators!?

When is ASBK even on? It's not advertised in the main stream, I ride motorbikes and do track days on them, and love and watch every MotoGP ( and Moto2 and Moto3 ), but I couldn't name a single rider in ASBK, or tell you when a race is on off the top of my head. I'd have to go searching for the info. Which is too much like hard work for the regular casual punter. If they advertise it widely and make it known that whoever is racing on a brand new super xtra plus bike, then they might get some punters through the gate and / or eyeballs on the tv and generate a following, but if no one who isn't directly connected with it even knows it's on, it's never going to be popular.

Really it needs to be on tv ( but done properly and professionally, not like last years' TCR coverage or other amateurish efforts ) so people can see it, follow it for a bit and develop an interest, then when the circus comes to their city they might think "I'll go and check that out at the track" and take their kids who will hopefully get like it and then you've started breeding a next generation of riders and supporters. Sure it'll take a few years, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and V8Supercars wasn't the big show it is today when it started in 1993 either.

[Mr X]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

When is ASBK even on? It's not advertised in the main stream, I ride motorbikes and do track days on them, and love and watch every MotoGP ( and Moto2 and Moto3 ), but I couldn't name a single rider in ASBK, or tell you when a race is on off the top of my head.

Really it needs to be on tv ( but done properly and professionally, not like last years' TCR coverage or other amateurish efforts ) so people can see it, follow .

The ASBK calendar has been on Speedcafe, like their Facebook page and they will spam you with all sorts of information. Follow McNews or the other online motorbike sites and it is heavy promoted there.
Superbikes will run at Wanneroo this year on the Supercar weekend.
Two ASBK rider have ridden in MotoGP. Baylis has ridden in the last couple of years, and owns a team.
ASBK has been on SBS for the last two years, and a live stream is available as well. It is not MoToGP/Supercars/F1 level but I doubt they would have $1M per year to make that happen, but it is watchable and enjoyable.

The racing is good, variety of manufacturers to support and parity is quite good. Gap to privateers is not too much, so there is action through the field. Last years final race that decided the championship was awesome and decided on the last lap, without a contrived points system.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

When is ASBK even on? It's not advertised in the main stream, I ride motorbikes and do track days on them, and love and watch every MotoGP ( and Moto2 and Moto3 ), but I couldn't name a single rider in ASBK, or tell you when a race is on off the top of my head. I'd have to go searching for the info. Which is too much like hard work for the regular casual punter. If they advertise it widely and make it known that whoever is racing on a brand new super xtra plus bike, then they might get some punters through the gate and / or eyeballs on the tv and generate a following, but if no one who isn't directly connected with it even knows it's on, it's never going to be popular.

Really it needs to be on tv ( but done properly and professionally, not like last years' TCR coverage or other amateurish efforts ) so people can see it, follow it for a bit and develop an interest, then when the circus comes to their city they might think "I'll go and check that out at the track" and take their kids who will hopefully get like it and then you've started breeding a next generation of riders and supporters. Sure it'll take a few years, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and V8Supercars wasn't the big show it is today when it started in 1993 either.

V8s weren’t the biggest show in town when the 1993 ATCC kicked off in front of a packed house at Amaroo with live FTA TV on Ch7?

What was so amateurish about the TCR coverage? Wasn’t it produced by Neil Crompton’s company Airtime Media?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

What was so amateurish about the TCR coverage? Wasn’t it produced by Neil Crompton’s company Airtime Media?

It was produced by AVE, who produce Speedweek for SBS.

http://www.ave.com.au/

[Juarez Jed]

And the races have frequently been shown live on Speedweek on Sunday arvo.
So it has hardly been hiding under a bushel as suggested by some.
But way off topic on a Gen3 forum.

[Beages]

Lowering the roll hoop. How hard is this? Ryan Walkinshaw seems to think it's not that big a deal....Brad Jones thinks differently. Getting Camaro on the grid next year and making the Mustang look like a Mustang should be a priority.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Beages

Lowering the roll hoop. How hard is this? Ryan Walkinshaw seems to think it's not that big a deal....Brad Jones thinks differently. Getting Camaro on the grid next year and making the Mustang look like a Mustang should be a priority.

This is where Supecars is it's own worst enemy.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

This is where Supecars is it's own worst enemy.

Care to elaborate?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Care to elaborate?

Basically they are paralysed by individual interests, it is just like F1.

If you watched Enforcer and the Dude with Roland and Ryan Story, each were trying to get the sport to adapt to things along the way, but because the sport needs basically agreement from all quarters, it can't get out of its own way.

Decisions like lowering the roll hoop to cater for sporty looking cars should have been a weekend's job, but instead all the teams bicker and nothing gets done.

There's something to be said for autocratic leadership when it comes to decisions that really need to be taken.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

There's something to be said for autocratic leadership when it comes to decisions that really need to be taken.

Hence why the teams (TEGA) should never have been given any control of the series