The Future of F3

[edenrace]

I bet the teams wished they were getting £750,000...lets start at £500,000 . This is just a badge on the Euroseries ...dates the same,will it make any difference...I do not think so the British is still the best and this is without Manufacturer and FIA help.

[bella]

i can declare no championship that contains the EPIC norisring as inferior to one that doesn't, sorry. even if it does contain the ridiculous brands hatch indy. but that's just irrational personal preference!

the whole thing does make naff all sense though, even as a compramise on the original plan of merging the uk and euroseries together. all it smells like is a "FINE. do it your own way" solution. and how's that going to build a product/concept that's going to withstand the economic conditions of the next few years?

[ivanalesi]

They're just preparing for 2013 & the new engine rules. Re-branding F3ES only makes it stronger, but it's a bit too late into the winter.
Anyways, as barnettracing pointed out, there are simply not enough dads who are willing to spend actually less than 500k EU on junior to race F3ES.
I think the FIA recognition was long due after the super strong seasons F3ES had some 4-5 years ago.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

the whole thing does make naff all sense though, even as a compramise on the original plan of merging the uk and euroseries together. all it smells like is a "FINE. do it your own way" solution. and how's that going to build a product/concept that's going to withstand the economic conditions of the next few years?

That says it all really.

I imagine the F3ES will be cancelled and this will take its place. That's the only conclusion I can reach after reading the it will all happen this year rather than in 2013.The FIA has yielded to pressure from the DMSB in a rather cowardly way.

The fact that the current engine manufacturers are Volkswagen and Mercedes may well be an irrelevance next year.

BF3 will continue as planned and Fortec has confirmed that it will run five cars, although the driver of the fifth has yet to be named.

The next BF3 tests are at Rockingham on the 13th and 14th. Then comes the Media Day on the 21st,

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

the f3 trophy has been revised to be... the f3 european championship.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97930

all that does is seriously undermine both the euroseries and the british series surely?

Instead of two F3 series on their knees, we'll now have three ! It's like something from Dumb and Dumber... these people mustn't have a working brain among them.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Instead of two F3 series on their knees, we'll now have three ! It's like something from Dumb and Dumber... these people mustn't have a working brain among them.

on that basis you have to assume there are behind the scene shenanigans. which is sad because to me, at this point, with this formula, it should be about the survival of that rather than a whole stack of dirty laundry and power struggles.

oh well. 'they' had their chance and 'they' blew it, in my opinion.

many of us would rather see bf3 emerge from this as the dominant series, though i'm not sure that's the logical outcome. but i honestly think they would have to think sideways to survive not come to the father ted-esque 'another mass' solution. oh well.

[davyboy]

If Forumla 3 is to survive at all... and yes I would go that far... in advance of 2012, those with long term vested interests in the category ought to have collaborated behind the scenes and agreed on a single series for this year. Whether it were to be called BF3, F3ES or something else who cares. Instead they've all chosen to go their separate ways... not the brightest option when drivers have the cheaper and better publicized [even it is technically inferior] GP3 as a credible alternative. Idiots !

If this is what F3 is about, then it doesn't deserve to prevail !

[barnettracing]

To go on a slight tangent, the future not just of F3 but of the entire junior formula ladder (at least in Britain) is under threat:

• BF3 had 9-10 F312's at Snetterton
• FRenault UK had just 6 cars at the same test
• British Formula Ford had 9 EcoBoost cars at the Silverstone test.

Motorsport has become unsustainably expensive across the board. We're pretty much back to the days of Brooklands where rich amateurs were the only people able to go motor racing.

It's going to take a big shake up from the FIA, local governing bodies, car manufacturers to get back to a system where talent, not dad's bank fund, is showcased.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

To go on a slight tangent, the future not just of F3 but of the entire junior formula ladder (at least in Britain) is under threat:

• BF3 had 9-10 F312's at Snetterton
• FRenault UK had just 6 cars at the same test
• British Formula Ford had 9 EcoBoost cars at the Silverstone test.

Motorsport has become unsustainably expensive across the board. We're pretty much back to the days of Brooklands where rich amateurs were the only people able to go motor racing.

It's going to take a big shake up from the FIA, local governing bodies, car manufacturers to get back to a system where talent, not dad's bank fund, is showcased.

Car manufacturers want to get to a system which makes them money and nothing more. And the only way you're going to get talent to rise over money in this environment of racing is to make the racing dangerous enough to scare off the ride buyers. I don't see any no hopers in bikes. Or rally. Because racing is safe you have people willing to write a check and because of the atmosphere of no or little TV coverage, you have teams willing to take the checks. I'm not advocating making racing more dangerous, but that's just the way it is.

[bella]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

To go on a slight tangent, the future not just of F3 but of the entire junior formula ladder (at least in Britain) is under threat:

i think it's just in britain. the startling success of the formula renault eurocup for one would suggest that the money is there if the option is cost effective, value for money and based on common sense. the non-eurocup series are doing well too, far better than the uk series.

there is a need to reshuffle motorsport and the way it is marketed to the masses in this country. we can only get people to turn out to the travelling circus, er, btcc here. clearly the current model isn't working. we're a service industry country now, businesses should be fighting for the attention of the masses. the whole thing is just crying out for some innovative marketing.

/rant

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

there is a need to reshuffle motorsport and the way it is marketed to the masses in this country. we can only get people to turn out to the travelling circus, er, btcc here. clearly the current model isn't working. we're a service industry country now, businesses should be fighting for the attention of the masses. the whole thing is just crying out for some innovative marketing.

/rant

Thinking more, it is definitely a UK-centric problem at the moment. The whole system is pretty whacky. In 2010, my dad, when running Saab City Group, decided to sponsor a whole race day at Brands Hatch. He bought 1000 tickets from MSV and advertised them for free, first come first serve, with a half page add in the Metro (the add only ran for one day).

The tickets sold out within about 48 hours. He tried to negotiate another 1000 but MSVR got silly over the price so he only ordered another 250. They sold out within a further 24 hours (there were customers on a waiting list for tickets!)

Initially my dad was in negotiations with MSV about buying the whole gate for the meeting and then just letting anyone who had a Metro copy or Saab City invitation in for free. With the way tickets were flying out, if this had happened this simple club meeting would have had a crowd of 6000-10000 such was demand. Instead, it got around 1500 (still three times more than a standard clubbie at Brands).

The reasoning behind not selling the gate to Saab City was that they were worried too many people would turn up and they wouldn't know how many catering staff/gate staff to put on for the day! As my dad pointed out to them, what if 8000 people turned up unprovoked for a normal raceday. Needless to say, MSV did have a reply other than 'no'. Even if they didn't have the ideal number of staff, MSV would have made a fortune from food, drink and possibly even some merchandise.

It just goes to show, at least in the London area, if motorsport is promoted well, with reasonable ticket prices (£5 not £15 for a club meeting), people will come and watch. If this money that the circuits made was then invested in lower entry fees, more competitors would turn up. Meetings would get bigger, profiles would get bigger so sponsors would be more willing to get involved. More money would be around to subsidise talented drivers. Etcetera etcetera etcetera.

Obviously this is a slightly simplified view (and completely off topic from F3's future) but it is a particular bug bear of mine.

[Flavio Galtieri]

The last three decades or so have produced a service industry with the teams, circuit owners, organisers, equipment distributors all focussing on marketing to the same "punter" - the competitor.

Apart from the BTCC, I doubt spectators even get much of a mention on the business plan, apart from the costs of providing toilets, security clearing litter afterwards and so on.

Ironically at the Grand Prix spectator ticket sales are pretty much the only source of income. It's all a bit of a mess really and I'm not surprised that there may be a crisis looming.

[ivanalesi]

Well, after the demise of most single-seater categories in France, Britain seems to be the next Everything is fine, don't worry!

[davyboy]

Maybe motor racing's going the way of Premier League football in that the vast majority of money is in the top echelon i.e. Formula One, with almost nothing [relatively speaking] in the levels below. The only category that seems to hold its own, and appeal to an albeit smaller number of spectators, throughout the world is national touring car championships.

If this is the case, the lower single seater formulae need to be significantly cheaper, operate on a national basis only and hook up with a touring car package. Something like the old national Formula Renault championship. GP3 and GP2 would then become the single international categories to graduate to.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Maybe motor racing's going the way of Premier League football in that the vast majority of money is in the top echelon i.e. Formula One, with almost nothing [relatively speaking] in the levels below. The only category that seems to hold its own, and appeal to an albeit smaller number of spectators, throughout the world is national touring car championships.

If this is the case, the lower single seater formulae need to be significantly cheaper, operate on a national basis only and hook up with a touring car package. Something like the old national Formula Renault championship. GP3 and GP2 would then become the single international categories to graduate to.

Pretty much spot on with everything there.

[petergriffin]

as long as there are still funders out there willing to meet the price asked by teams the industry will not change. look at formula renault 2.0 eurocup testing field and it seems there is no financial crisis happening in europe for sure.

[ivanalesi]

I wonder what is the effect of the recent F1 trend mixing pay drivers with very experienced drivers. It surely looks like F1 is closed to those who can win, but don't have at least what looks like at least 10 mln EU.
Many fathers(and not only) are investing in their kids also because they hope the kid can turn professional and repay the investment, but now it looks like an incredibly tall order, in fact almost impossible.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

I wonder what is the effect of the recent F1 trend mixing pay drivers with very experienced drivers. It surely looks like F1 is closed to those who can win, but don't have at least what looks like at least 10 mln EU.
Many fathers(and not only) are investing in their kids also because they hope the kid can turn professional and repay the investment, but now it looks like an incredibly tall order, in fact almost impossible.

F1 isn't the only place to get paid...

[bella]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

F1 isn't the only place to get paid...

this! the smart guys are the ones who see a balance in it, who use their single seater career to develop, gain experience and a good reputation (if not titles), and who go race whatever suits their talent, budget and sponsor needs or skills. that may or may not be f1. there comes a point for many drivers where their money would be better spent in endurance, sportscars (i can't call a 4 hour race endurance, it just isn't!), or even rally or something like that. and better spent from an investment point of view means more likely to result in being able to race cars to pay the bills.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

this! the smart guys are the ones who see a balance in it, who use their single seater career to develop, gain experience and a good reputation (if not titles), and who go race whatever suits their talent, budget and sponsor needs or skills. that may or may not be f1. there comes a point for many drivers where their money would be better spent in endurance, sportscars (i can't call a 4 hour race endurance, it just isn't!), or even rally or something like that. and better spent from an investment point of view means more likely to result in being able to race cars to pay the bills.

The problem is that to even get that far costs too much money. I can't even afford to get out of club Formula Ford. Scott Malvern can't find the money to move into F3/F2/GP3 nor can he find the backing to make a move into sportscars.

I've never wanted to race in F1. Never. But I have always wanted to be a professional sportscar driver (we all dream). My dream may seem more obtainable, but it's not. It still costs vast sums of money to move into British Formula Ford (we nearly did it this year, running ourselves, but then EcoBoost was confirmed and we didn't want to run in 'Class B').

[bella]

what i'd really like to see is a comparison of what it genuinely cost to go racing in particular categories 10 years ago, 20 years ago and 30 years ago in relative terms, ie relative to the average wage of the times, versus what it costs now.

i think that would answer a lot of rants, ravings and questions about whether a series is too costly or not.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

what i'd really like to see is a comparison of what it genuinely cost to go racing in particular categories 10 years ago, 20 years ago and 30 years ago in relative terms, ie relative to the average wage of the times, versus what it costs now.

i think that would answer a lot of rants, ravings and questions about whether a series is too costly or not.

Me and my dad have often 'roughly' worked it out, taking into account inflation. For example, a brand new FF1600 used to be £1000 ready to race (it was in the rules). That was similar to a new Ford Cortina. A new Ford Mondeo now is what, £18000 for the basic model? Well, a new rolling chassis FF1600 will cost you around £22-24000.

Running costs are the big difference. Off the top of my head, running costs for a BF3 car in the mid 70s equates to around £200,000 in today's money. Well, that is quite a way short of the equivalent budget for a seat at Carlin.

One of the major differences in the 1970s was prize money. In the excellent 'Formula Ford' book, it breaks down the cost of a season. If you were successful, once you had sold the car on again at the end of a season, you could break even for a season's racing. Can you imagine a BFF driver earning £150,000 in prize money in 2012?

[bella]

but there's other things too. how much would you then spend on developing the car yourselves to make it as competitive as the ones at the front, for example? if you used the same number of staff, and took out the factory overheads that are de rigeur now how much would it cost absolute bare minimum to run a f3 car today?

then you have to think ok, well you're buying the chassis from a small engineering company. how much has lack of competition pushed the rates up? cost of materials? anyone who makes anything knows the raw material costs for metals have gone up hugely in the past 5 years alone, completely out of line with inflation. how many people does it take to build and engineer a basic chassis now versus then (genuine question, i have no idea)? what are the percentages for labour, materials and machining compared? so many things have changed.

don't get me wrong, things clearly have changed for the worse for everyone except the very well off, simply from a prize money perspective! but i'm not sure it's as simple as just saying it cost this to buy then, now it costs this much. maybe it is, but i can't quite imagine it's that simple!

[petergriffin]

if you think f3's expensive for uk & europeans, spare a thought for drivers trying to race fm Australia/Asia. even with aust/asian currencies strengthening they still have to find:

Aust - 50% more
Malaysia - 4.7 times more
singapore - 2 time more

than uk and european drivers. wonder why there are so few drivers from that region.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by petergriffin

if you think f3's expensive for uk & europeans, spare a thought for drivers trying to race fm Australia/Asia. even with aust/asian currencies strengthening they still have to find:

Aust - 50% more
Malaysia - 4.7 times more
singapore - 2 time more

than uk and european drivers. wonder why there are so few drivers from that region.

Pssh. Try being an American. If it's not worse enough that we have to send our drivers elsewhere if their aspirations are F1, we get all of Europe's overflow, so they can't even get drives in their domestic ladder.