A Pre-50s Picture

[Mr. Tom]

Hey guys, I am new here. I also know relatively little about Formula 1, really the further back you go the less I know!

Anyway, recently I came across this picture. I've been looking at this forum for a while and there seems to be a great deal of knowledge amongst you all. I was interested if you knew the driver and car in this picture, and also if you could point me towards any good reference websites for Formula 1 history.



Cheers!

[Stone Man]

I am probably wrong but it looks like Giuseppi Campari (of Campari drinks fame) .
I know nothing about him except that he was one of three drivers killed at Monza in the early thirties- in the same race!
The man with him would have been his "riding mechanic" to help change wheels etc.
But I'm not at all sure about this...

[John Turner]

Welcome, Mr Tom. I think Stone Man is right about it being Giuseppe Campari and since the P2 Alfa Romeo carries the no. 10, I suspect that this is a shot taken just after he had won the 1924 French Grand Prix. If I am right so far, the riding mechanic is Attilio Marinoni. The race was over 503 miles and they won at 70.98 mph (just think of it - 7 hours!) having inherited the lead just a couple of laps from the end when the similarly mounted Antonio Ascari, with mechanic Guilio Ramponi, suffered engine problems and was unable to restart following a pitstop. (And no, I didn't know all this, just pieced it together from a number of books in my collection - and I could still be wrong!).

[Mr. Tom]

Thanks Stoneman and John!

[rescue dude]

Your knowledge scares me sometimes JT.

[John Turner]

Thank you, RD, but my books are my knowledge! I'm just fortunate enough to have built a motor racing book collection over 40 years, and there are still loads of gaps!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Thank you, RD, but my books are my knowledge! I'm just fortunate enough to have built a motor racing book collection over 40 years, and there are still loads of gaps!

It's not what you know but knowing where to look it up!

[eclectic]

That was pretty impressive John.

I posted the following picture on the VSCC Forum recently and it was identified with a fair degree of certainty in two days.

Go on, give it a go!

PS I trust VSCC Forista will keep schtum.
Crashed Racer at Bonnieres

PPS For some reason I cannot get this to come up as a picture.

[John Turner]

Thanks Mike; nothing like being put on the spot. Shame we can't download the picture here. In France, obviously, and first thoughts were French GP, but location wasn't right. There are some false clues here, the first being the date at the top - 1st July 1907, the day before the 1907 race was held, so it could have been during practice, except the race no 4B (not 48 as I had originally thought, which also threw me!) was incorrect for 1907 when the letter and number (eg F2, C3 etc) were reversed. So 1906 GP then, held at Le Mans, which was probably the last year they used the number/letter combination. In which case it should be Louis Wagner's Darracq, except that is reported to have retired from the race with engine failure after only two laps, and anyway Bonnieres-sur-Seine is miles away from Le Mans (even though the circuit that year was 64 miles long!). However, the fact that Bonnieres is so far from the circuit, and that there are some spectators and some very ancient cars in the road, points (I know spectator control was poor in those days, but surely not that bad!), I don't think this happened during the race at all. It should also be noted that Bonnieres is North West of Paris not far from the Talbot Darracq factory at Suresnes. So 3 scenarios come to mind;-

1) The car was crashed either whilst being tested or on its way to the 1906 GP at Le Mans
2) The engine was repaired after its retirement from the 1906 GP and was crashed when being driven back to the factory
3) Least likely, was that it was crashed on its way to the 1907 GP at Dieppe still carrying its 1906 race number! That being the case it would have had an engine change because the engine size was bigger for 1907.

My favourite is the second scenario. Of course, if it is not the 1906 Darracq, the rest of my effort is a fantastic story! I've spent about 3 hours chasing clues on this, so you can't blame me for not trying. I hope I haven't made a total fool of myself and am completely wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if I had. Basically, it's a best guess based on the flimsy info. I have here at home!

[eclectic]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Shame we can't download the picture here.

Hi John, sorry to cause you so much grief!

I don't think this happened during the race at all.

Perhaps you might be able to post the picture if I give you the URL?

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=83433344&size=m

The VSCC answer indicates that it didn't happen in a race.

Are you sure the Darraq was 4A?

Think of a race run in 1907 that you havn't mentioned yet.....

Still you may be right and the VSCC boys wrong!

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I hope I haven't made a total fool of myself and am completely wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if I had.

But at least you rose to the challenge - that's why I like this forum!!!

[eclectic]

No shame at all, I spent a good evening myself ploughing through my reference books before I gave up and opened it to the VSCC Forum myself!You may yet be right, but look for another race series in 1907.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by eclectic

The VSCC answer indicates that it didn't happen in a race.

Well, at least I got that bit right, then!

Originally Posted by eclectic

Are you sure the Darraq was 4A?

No, I said 4B! In fact all the Darracqs in the 1906 GP were numbered 4 and followed by a letter of the alphabet - 4A was driven by Hemery, 4B by Wagner and 4C by Hanriot.

Originally Posted by eclectic

Think of a race run in 1907 that you havn't mentioned yet.....

Well, there was the Kaiserpreis in Germany, which had a similar numbering system, number followed by letter, the Coppa Florio at Brescia, also with that numbering system. They, however, were for touring cars although the distinction between racing and touring seemed pretty thin at that time. The only one left on the European mainland, that I can find for 1907, was the Circuits des Ardennes in Belgium, but although I have found the results, I have no idea to what formula it ran or the numbering system!

Originally Posted by eclectic

Still you may be right and the VSCC boys wrong!

Most unlikely! I enjoyed the challenge, though!

[John Turner]

OK, let's try to download the image;-




Just click on it to enlarge.

Incidentally, if it is not the 1906 event, I suggested, it could be one of any number of car makes of the day, although the badge may suggest, F.I.A T. Many of the radiators were very similar and subject to subtle changes year on year.

[eclectic]

OK, I'll put you out of your misery, It seems that it was something really rare and unrecorded.

Here is a condensed version of the discussion on the other Forum, the id came from the race numbers and the monogramme on the side. It is as good as we can get until someone comes up with another clearly identified picture to confirm it.

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Is it possible this is a DNS for the Kaiserpreis? If the photo was taken in 1907, developed, printed as a postcard, put on sale, purchased by someone who posted it on Sept 1st, then it is likely the “unfortunate roadside event” had occurred some time before.
The Kaiserpreis was held on June 13/14. The number/alpha identification was used to identify the manufacturer/driver, so 7 was given to Benz and A,B,C for Hemery, De Bojano, and Spamann. Now, 4A was Taddeoli on a Rebour and 4B ……well there was no 4B in the list of starters. But I’d love to see a picture of a Rebour. Maybe he was overturned in ditch on his way to scrutineering? (It happens; I’ve done it myself on the way to Curborough one year a long time ago ).

Anyway chaps, lets have a look at a Rebour if anyone has a picture. All I know is that it was eliminated in the preliminary rounds on the 13th, and it had a bore/stroke of 150x113 (source Gerald Rose, A Record of Motor Racing, 1909), which if true makes it outrageously over-square for the era.

Steve Denner, Australia.

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You've got it! 4B Rebour - "Entered but did not appear in heats" So you are looking at a picture of a Rebour and presumably the monogram is that of J......Rebour the maker. I found this on http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/g...1925/1907d.htm - sorry not clever enough to do a link

ps found this too, company was "Rebour-Catalonia" 1905-1908 at Puteaux

Martin Trentham, GB.

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Update from my French expert - any comments.

OK for Rebour
1907 KaiserPreis
2 Rebours entered (after Omnia magazine)
One only started for qualification (too many cars). Driver Taddeoli retired
on lap 2.
No Rebour in the race.
Suspect it's an old Mercedes 60 HP. Or a Fiat ?
Not a single line in the press.
Never heard of Rebour afterwards.
a true Tiroir de l'Inconnu isn't it ?

Otto Cycle, Germany.

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[John Turner]

No wonder, I was out with that; I've never come across a Rebour before! Certainly the monogram is an R with a J through the centre.

Georgano says that Automobiles Rebour were based at Puteaux, Seine and that they only manufactured their own vehicles from 1905 -1908. They were also marketed with the name 'Catalonia' in Spain, all this confirming Martin's info. above. Interesting too, that both Rebour and Darracq were manufacturing cars at Suresnes, at the time!

Fascinating stuff!