Would anyone fancy a change from the Silhouette series?

[Mixer]

[QUOTE=nafe!;2576271]Everybody loves to qoute group a....it was this it was that blah blah blah. Who cares about group a....look at GROUP C. Group C allowed the aussie made cars to battle for the wins, provided awesome racing with genuinely different cars with production roots and the fans loved it. [QUOTE=nafe!;2576271]

First of all, I am not against anything, but the ideas people are spruiking here are just not feasable.

Yes Group C were AWESOME, but the competitors kept CAMS in court over eligibility, the rulebook is WAY too free to use now and the 1.4 multiplier for turbo cars is just a touch out of date.

Originally Posted by nafe!

Do you think its a co incidence that at any historic meeting the whole paddock stops what its doing to go and watch the group c cars, they have an enormous effect on the fans.

This isn't because Group C is amazing category we should adopt today, its because it was an amazing moment in time where heroes and legends were made, this time has passed but the legends live on.

If you built cars to these standards today, they would break all the time, people would die in accidents, and everybody would be screaming about unfair rules. Look at GT racing now, Craig Baird pulled out completely because they kept putting bigger air restrictors in his car.

[Mixer]

Anybody who is advocating a return to production based racing should view this for what I have been talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&h...&v=ghAUR048kMA

This was 20 years ago, you could not run cars like that these days, you'd have OH&S all over you and get sued out of existence.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Thanks for adding your agenda onto my post bluesport. That's quite charming of you.

I said nothing nor implied anything of the sort and nowhere did I say we should stick to the current 5.0L V8 format.

But you said that turbo 4w/d cars would ruin the series......I would suggest that the two manufacturers currently running in the series have already ruined it!

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

As for the people crying about the lack of variety now comparing to the Group A era, what short memories you have. The variety of vehicles created an inequality which the fans hated, culminating in the fans booting the winners of Bathurst in 1992. Fans dispised the GTR, and something had to be done, what got done was the original V8Supercar rules.

Who hated Group A?......I know I didn't......I hate what we now have.......another holden category it is degenerating into.





















w

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Who hated Group A?......I know I didn't......I hate what we now have.......another holden category it is degenerating into.

And I suppose that is Holdens fault.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Anybody who is advocating a return to production based racing should view this for what I have been talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&h...&v=ghAUR048kMA

This was 20 years ago, you could not run cars like that these days, you'd have OH&S all over you and get sued out of existence.

I'm not sure what your point is? There is nothing to stop a similiar accident like that happening these days

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by racer69

I'm not sure what your point is? There is nothing to stop a similiar accident like that happening these days

The point is you'll never see damage to cars like that these days, see how badly those cars have folded up.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by sizzle

And I suppose that is Holdens fault.

Partly......holden seem to have this chip on their shoulder where they have to win everything on the track to try and convince everybody that they are one of the great marques of the world, and they do it by politically eliminating or restricting the opposition (no turbos, buy out the strongest teams) ......FFS the commodore is a family hack!!!

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Partly......holden seem to have this chip on their shoulder where they have to win everything on the track to try and convince everybody that they are one of the great marques of the world, and they do it by politically eliminating or restricting the opposition (no turbos, buy out the strongest teams) ......FFS the commodore is a family hack!!!

Chip on the shoulder. Yes.

[promax]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Chip on the shoulder. Yes.

[Mixer]

On second thoughts, could be a brain tumour, I'd get it checked.

[nafe!]

Mixer im sure there is a compromise.

Roll Cages have come a long way since then. Maybe it means v8supercar style building of the chassis around the roll cage, expensive yes but it may have to be done to ensure safety. As long as the chassis is representitive of what people can buy on the road all be it a race replication i dont see it being a problem.

Your very keen to shootdown the possibilities, i just dont think its anywhere near as difficult as you suggest.

What about series like gt2 and gt3 in gt racing. Now they are production based chassis arent they? And they dont have any safety issues with there roll cages in accidents. Im only citing this as an example to show that there are always answers to problems.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by nafe!

Your very keen to shootdown the possibilities, i just dont think its anywhere near as difficult as you suggest.

I have no desire to shoot anybody down but these are ENGINEERING FACTS. You cannot take a standard Holden shell and put a V8supercar cage in it, even if you did find a way to heavily modify a road shell to race it, the first time you have a half decent prang in it, its stuffed, and it takes you 3 times as long to cut bits off it, straighten what's left and weld on new bits. This is WHY v8s are built as they are.

Originally Posted by nafe!

What about series like gt2 and gt3 in gt racing. Now they are production based chassis arent they? And they dont have any safety issues with there roll cages in accidents. Im only citing this as an example to show that there are always answers to problems.

Yes you can buy a Porsche GT2 but its hand-built and has barely anything in common with a standard 911. "Production" is a very badly used term.

Apart from Porsche all the GT2 and GT3 cars are made by outfits like Prodrive not by the car factories, for the reason that the standard shells need too much modification. So these are not production cars at all.

EDIT: I want to clarify my position here. I AM against a return to production based racing as the main game for a few reasons.

1. There's plenty of production based racing already.
2. Safety issues as I have mentioned ad infinitum
3. Parity issues.

Anybody that's watched V8s for any length of time knows that we've arrived at the current cars as they are because people (FORD) constantly complained that the other car was better.

As soon as you go to a production based series the cars are dramatically different in engine outputs, gearing, suspension points, aerodynamic performance, and any other thing you'd care to measure.

Does anyone remember for YEARS John Bowe *****ing about the AU Falcon and what a piece of **** it was, people saying the Commodore had better straight line speed... Constant politics and bull****.

Right now we have cars that are near as dammit to equal and all the racing gets done on the track. Do we really want to open that Pandora's box again? I know I don't.

[dougcharli]

this will no doubt create a storm in a teacup, but why can't we build weaker chassis - still with an adequate cage - and a Monocoque where the driver sits - surely this would assist in alleviating costs whilst stil protecting the driver.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by dougcharli

this will no doubt create a storm in a teacup, but why can't we build weaker chassis - still with an adequate cage - and a Monocoque where the driver sits - surely this would assist in alleviating costs whilst stil protecting the driver.

Stronger chassis for one equals less twist in the body so much better suspension control & tuning, as well as much improved safety. I'm quite stupefied as to why you would want to build anything weaker.

[dougcharli]

The "weaker" comment was made to discuss the possibility of making a "safety Monocoque" for the drive, whilst retaining a more road like car - more like the older Group C chassis.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by dougcharli

The "weaker" comment was made to discuss the possibility of making a "safety Monocoque" for the drive, whilst retaining a more road like car - more like the older Group C chassis.

But if you custom make a monocoque its going to be ALMOST EXACTLY like a v8supercar is now, custom guts with roadcar like hang on panels.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

Bit like the 2010 V8SC series is likely to be. For all of its faults, the Group A era did see 6 manufacturers win the ATCC or Bathurst over 8 years.

Lets not kid ourselves, V8SC has been a one make category for a while now.......

[nafe!]

Originally Posted by Mixer

But if you custom make a monocoque its going to be ALMOST EXACTLY like a v8supercar is now, custom guts with roadcar like hang on panels.

Thanks for clarifying the gt cars, i would like to hear from some of our gt members (im unaware of your real world experience knowledge with gt cars)just to have it confirmed that shell modification is a actually undertaken by those outfits but for the moment ill just accept what you say is correct.

I mentioned in the same post that you replied to that a compromise would be to just build the chassis like they do now, however remaining true to the real world dimensions of the vehicles.

That does not make it exactly like a v8supercar. It makes the build process of the chassis the same...but the entire remainder of the car can utilise race modified production parts.

Engine blocks, transmissions suspension, etc etc could all be utilised from the road car.

Every other category in the world utilising different makes of cars with very different components does a good job at parity. And with more then 2 makes of car involved suddenly the parity of the holden and ford isnt the be all and end all when the public and the officials are watching the performance of any number of makes.

I can handle bogan parity winging for the sake of real passing, real cars, multiple variables etc.

The v8 utes are a good example of how you can take 2 completely different cars and make them perform at near exactly the same sort of performance. Carefully manage the introduction of new models and parity and there are no issues.

Yes it is a big leap away from what we have no now, but there are lots of us out there mixer who would love to see touring car racing again.

If the car of tomorrow..future or whatever rubbish name you want to apply to it is a space frame chassis sports sedan wth absolutely NOTHING in common with the road car i want to see vesa drop the Australian Touring Car Championship , any reference to the past and allow a genuine touring car categoryto be re created while vesa run there own v8 sports sedan series.

[Dingo]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I think the path from then on shows that the main show has delivered what most fans want, just not what some rose-coloured-glasses wearing forum posters want.

Most fans only want someone to follow fanatically, and someone to aim their vitriol at.

Most fans want fries with that, if you prompt them.

(NB: mostfans. Not all.)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Anybody that's watched V8s for any length of time knows that we've arrived at the current cars as they are because people (FORD) constantly complained that the other car was better.

To the contrary, wasn't the Ford EB originally better and shouldn't it have stayed that way without whinging Holden personnel meddling? Similarly, wasn't the AU a rocket-ship in the wind tunnel before Holden got restrictions put on it's aero?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

To the contrary, wasn't the Ford EB originally better and shouldn't it have stayed that way without whinging Holden personnel meddling? Similarly, wasn't the AU a rocket-ship in the wind tunnel before Holden got restrictions put on it's aero?

The EB, with the illegally lightweight panels?

The AU might have been a rocketship in the wind tunnel but it couldn't turn a corner worth a damn and it shattered its front splitter every time you showed it a blade of grass, until they grafted the bottom half of the Commodore splitter onto it.

Anyway this jousting illustrates my point perfectly.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The EB, with the illegally lightweight panels?

The AU might have been a rocketship in the wind tunnel but it couldn't turn a corner worth a damn and it shattered its front splitter every time you showed it a blade of grass, until they grafted the bottom half of the Commodore splitter onto it.

Anyway this jousting illustrates my point perfectly.

Maybe EF's with lightweight panels........and the crime was thought to be so insignificant that the offending teams avoided any meaningful sanction.

Of course the V8 Ute Series with a mixture of factory and after market parts is probably closer to the spec that some fans would like to see.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by chavez

Of course the V8 Ute Series with a mixture of factory and after market parts is probably closer to the spec that some fans would like to see.

This wouldn't be a bad idea but it just doesn't make something exciting enough for the main game, in my humble opinion.

[retro]

Would anyone fancy a change from the Silhouette series?

Just wondering whether any V8 supercar fans would prefer to switch back to proper touring cars, just like in the late 80s when sierra cosworths battled holden v8s

After today...NoThanks.