So how much of a unibodied car has to be original to have historic provenance?

[Al Weyman]

This question keeps popping up in my head as I seriously find it ludicrious some of the prices I have seen for unibody constructed cars that were meant to have some historical racing history selling for. I mean here we have say for an example a Mk 1 Escort that may have been raced in period goes into storage for a while then is renovated. Ok so far thats fair enough it can be concidered the real thing. Then the current owner decides to race this £100k gem and has a seriously big un rolling it into a ball and nothing hardly is salvagable so the only way forward is a reshell. So he finds a Mk 1 Automatic shell (bigger tunnel or modifies a 1100 base model) or what ever swaps any salvageable pars he car then carfully cuts out the chassis number and stitches it back in the new shell. The roll cage may be toast since the accident so that gets repaired. The running gear and engine could have been changed many times over the years so where is the originality of the car? And is changing the plate a fraudulent act?

[Derwent Motorsp]

This has been happening for years in rallying. ex works cars gradully fell into the hands of clubmen, were modded or rolled or rotted away. This was long before there was an interest in historic rally cars. In most cases now most of the "famous" cars only have the registration as an original part!

[Al Weyman]

And if they are road registered and made up of bits is that not 'ringing' to give it its slang name? See I just dont get this, also many of the originals must have had alloy cages which would have long gone. I heard of someone stacking a car up recently and if I owned a proper genuine one that was not repairable in a big un I would build and race a replica and have the real on under lock and key. (If I had the kind of dough required to own these things of course). can see something like a sports racer Loa T70 or something because if you wipe off a corner or a load of fibre glass that can bre replicated its just that a unibodied car surely the shell is the car and if thats gone then surely thats it goodbye.

[VIVA GT]

Just like the original woodmans axe. Throughout time it's had three new heads and 17 new shafts, but it's still the original woodmans axe...

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Just like the original woodmans axe. Throughout time it's had three new heads and 17 new shafts, but it's still the original woodmans axe...

Surely this was tested in court some years ago when the buyer of Bentley "Old Number One" sued saying it was not the original car. The judge ruled that as long as the identity of the car was continuously associated with a single vehicle and that this was never completely scrapped (ie every single piece) then the car was still "Old Number One" even though over time evry single part had been replaced and there might not be a single atom that was a physical part of the original car.

After all you consider yourself the same person you were ten years ago but in ten years virtually every particle in your body has been replaced.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

....... I would build and race a replica and have the real on under lock and key. .........

they do that too, Aston prototype comes to mind.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

After all you consider yourself the same person you were ten years ago but in ten years virtually every particle in your body has been replaced.

Good point. Is it possible to sue someone based on the results of the renovation?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

they do that too, Aston prototype comes to mind.

Which one do you have in mind, David?

[zefarelly]

what about a new car with no period identity made from old parts . .smething the VIntage brigade encounter I believe

or, an old car made from old parts with a resurected identity from a long since dead car . .. very common

at the end of the day its supply and demand, and the demand currently outstrips supply in general terms

there will always be a premium on proper cars, but the rest will always sell as long as there's a disorderly queue of buffoons with fat wallets

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Surely this was tested in court some years ago when the buyer of Bentley "Old Number One" sued saying it was not the original car. The judge ruled that as long as the identity of the car was continuously associated with a single vehicle and that this was never completely scrapped (ie every single piece) then the car was still "Old Number One" even though over time evry single part had been replaced and there might not be a single atom that was a physical part of the original car.

After all you consider yourself the same person you were ten years ago but in ten years virtually every particle in your body has been replaced.

I read a transcript of that judges rulling online today, it was absolutely fascinating!!

[Alex E]

Interesting question Al, even more interesing is the reason you asked it !

It seems to me that in the rally world people seem happy to accept that cars get crashed & re=shelled. But with race cars it seems different, if a car was re-shelled in period it seems you should not claim any history before that.
But the sensible thing would be to keep the damaged shell, so it does not re-surface somewhere down the line.
The problem with building a replica of you treasure to race, should you claim it is still the real one & then roll it intio a ball when you re-appear in the real one they think you bult a replica to replace the real one..
alex

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And is changing the (indentity) plate a fraudulent act?

Going back to the above question-

The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs is in talks with DVLA about getting current legislation changed so that a monocoque road registered classic could be re-shelled with a second hand body and still legally retain original identity / registration. At present it is illegal unless the swap is declared- then the car will be issued with a 'Q' plate registration number.

On pure racing cars a different situation....

Alex- think I get your drift!

[Alex E]

Mike, interesting about the DVLA thing, but I think most people would keep quiet about a re-shell of a classic car. The less you tell them the better....
About 7-8 years ago I was offered a car in part-ex for something I was selling. It was shall we say an English sporta car with an American engine. Some research revealed it had a twin sister in the USA that had been there since 1964! Some research later I discovered that in a certain European country you can go the the licensing Authorities to register an old car for which you have zero documents. Provided the car meet all of the legal requirements of that country they will issue a registration document with the chassis number that is on the chassis !
No wonder there are problems....
Alex

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Mike, interesting about the DVLA thing, but I think most people would keep quiet about a re-shell of a classic car. The less you tell them the better....

Yup.

BTW We need to know the country where you can get a reg without any documents.......

[Al Weyman]

Someone I used to know told me he took on a job to build a replica Birdcage Maserati. He was given the original and did an exact replica. Years late he had learnt a Japanese buyer had paid a fortune for the car not knowing it was a replica. I dont know the truth behind this but he seems a pretty straight guy.

[Cliff Ryan]

So why have you asked the question Al & why have you picked on Mk1 Escorts?

Surely the shell is just another part for the car? So if it is worn out, why not relace it as you would any other part & I don't see the difference in this respect of a unibody car to a car with a seperate chassis, as people replace chassis don't they?

I prescribe to the 'triggers broom' theory. My XJS is on it's second bodyshell & 4th or 5th engine and incorporates many parts from my first car as well as parts from another XJS race car that I owned for 8 laps of Mallory, but it's still the same car in my eyes!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Which one do you have in mind, David?

dunno - I just have a vague memory of reading about a rare prototype being tested at Goodwood and it mentioned the owner (German?) had built a copy to preserve the original. Think it was an Aston, sure it was a funny old green thing (1950s?)

[Al Weyman]

@Cliff I would rather not say on line which car, I used a Mk 1 Escort as an example as its not exoctica like an Aston or similar but a simple car that was mass produced and probably had 100,000's of shells produced, my point is unlike a car like an Aston or any car with a chassis a unibody car IS the car and that it, if that gone its no longer relevant or original.

Its like if Triggers broom was cut up into little pieces and destroyed in its entirity because the rest of the car, engine, gearbox etc are just consumable add ons. I also think the Bentley argument is irrelevant as it too has a separate chassis and is not a Unibodied car. I remember seeing a sports racer have the entire body ripped off at Goodwood and was rebuilt IMO fair play the body was fibreglass and the owner probably had access to the original moulds the chassis was the important part. The unibodied car the chassis and body are one thats the car and thats my point, replace the shell and it is no longer the original caer, change the chassis plate and its a ringer as simple as that.

Finally another point. You showed me a Camaro IROC for sale at 200,000 euros in france, Mike pointed us to another for sale in the US for just 53,000 dollars. The difference between the two cars is the French one is like my old car a semi unibodied car that was dropped by Penske as seen impossible to keep them all the same the essence of IROC. The US one is tubular frame chassis adobted in 77 same as mine. So why are these worth less, the earlier one could simply be my older car with a coat of paint and a few wheel arches it could be any old Camaro body, the later ones HAVE to be the real deal as the tubular chassis is the roll cage and the car, most strange.

[Cliff Ryan]

@Al - go on spill the beans

As you know Daniels Mexico is a genuine one & loads of people ask why we are racing a genuine Mexico & not a replica - FFS it's a road going edition sold to capitalise on the success of a rally car

But why is it any different if someone reshells a car such as an Escort to someone replacing the chassis on a say a Lotus Élan?

[Al Weyman]

Its not and the Elan should no longer be concidered original unless of course the entire body was retained and thats th point the unibody car you cannot do that, if the whole thing was changed and the vin plate prised off and transferred its a ringer. I wont give a specific example as its not fair on the owner.

[Al Weyman]

Daniels car is not at issue here, its worth what a Mexico is worth, it has no historic provenance to begin with, if someone values that at 20 or 30k then thats it it is what it is and good luck. I am talking about something that had done the London Mexico Rally or XOO ???F Alan Mann Escort that would change hands for 5 or 6 times or more the price of Daniels car. i was offered the Alan Mann car for a grand by motor trader Doug Bell and was tempted to use if for HotRod racing and that would have been the end of that unless of course I reshelled it.......

[Cliff Ryan]

I don't see it - I doubt if there are many Elans still with the original chassis but surely they are still the same car?

As I said earlier, the shell is just part of the car, the history or Patina is something comPletely different that can't be replaced as the Judge in the old no1 case said.

[Cliff Ryan]

But if you had bought the ex Alan Mann car are you saying that it would have lost it's identity if you'd replaced any major parts - surely it will always be the ex Alan Mann car & retained it's premium as long as you could show it to be the same car?

Go on - spill the beans we won't tell anybody & there are only a few people who read this

[terence]

In essence I agree with you Al,there are far too many "Works" registration numbers on rebodied cars that have very little in common with what they are supposed to be.As I have said before,make the owner prove that the car is as claimed before issuing that all important link to a much higher selling price.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Its not and the Elan should no longer be concidered original unless of course the entire body was retained and thats th point the unibody car you cannot do that.

Going back to the DVLA / FBHVC consultation, I think the issue has been raised as a road car with seperate chassis like Elan or Morgan can have a new one (or used one) fitted and still retain original identity. In period new bodyshells could be fitted to Escorts and identity transferred. Now it is not possible to get new shell but why not allow a used replacement to be used? (With correct policing, naturally.)

Not exactly on topic, but interesting discussion in history section where a car was recently featured in a magazine that intimated it being an ex ******** racer. Appears that the original builder of car in 1970s is a tenther and they recognized car from the pics. It was built from a spare shell sold off by said race team. Not exactly same thing.......
(It could be another case of 'journalistic licence', of course.)

As always when considering a purchase, Buyer Beware!

BTW Al & Cliff- were you two in the pub and communicating by smartphone last eve?