2017 FORMULA 1 AZERBAIJAN GRAND PRIX - Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[djinvicta]

Here we go!
https://drivetribe.com/p/fia-launch-...source=organic

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

yeah i also spent some time looking around last night with not a lot of luck.

some interesting stuff that Tata is doing about creating virtual simulations of real time GPs is about as close as i could find about delivering real time data to people.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mo...-idUSKBN19D05H

one quote i thought interesting was:

The main problem, he explained then, was getting the accuracy of GPS positioning down to about 10mm from the current 200mm.

again just speculating, but from that i infer there is still a discrepancy in the data they have access to (and thus the data we see on screen). so there is a margin of error here...all be it a small one but in this sport tenths matter.


also cant wait to see to what level our debates will reach once we have the potential to put ourselves literally into the place of the driver.

would we see this differently if we could experience it from Ham's or Seb's real time perspective?

It adds a little, thanks for the link

Would the level of debate change? I don't know, but maybe someone will get a pay check?

[Kempi]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I seem to recall Ferrari running illegal traction control in 2000 and maybe earlier, even managing to make it legal from 2001 onward.

If it was illegal, how come they won WCC and WDC hat year with nodisqualfications/ points deducted?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Would the level of debate change? I don't know, but maybe someone will get a pay check?

probably not. the F1 version of Godwin's law will still rule..."As an F1 online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Ferrari cheating and/or Hamilton lying approaches 1"

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Kempi

If it was illegal, how come they won WCC and WDC hat year with nodisqualfications/ points deducted?

I believe we've had one or two threads on this before. Here's one:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...action+control

Originally Posted by chillibowl

probably not. the F1 version of Godwin's law will still rule..."As an F1 online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Ferrari cheating and/or Hamilton lying approaches 1"

[bobec]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Comparing the first and second safety car restarts. Vettel tried to make up for his mistake at the first restart, and over did it.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/20..._examined.html

Vettel's speed was just over 10km/h faster than Hamilton at the corner just before he hit Hamilton.

Really disappointed by this official F1 comparison video. They don't show the speed comparison from the on-boards and only focus on where Vettel is. And from their video it really seems like Hamilton did not drop speed at corner exit during the first restart. In fact, he does the first restart exactly how it should be done and he is both successful at gaining an advantage, and at the same time, being fully predictable.

[JABWOA]

I for one truly believed the side swipe was just a mistake while red-misting and the punishment fit the crime. But Seb wants to stick to the "I had full control at all times" story then it was an intentional move to bang wheels. Well.....

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

I for one truly believed the side swipe was just a mistake while red-misting and the punishment fit the crime. But Seb wants to stick to the "I had full control at all times" story then it was an intentional move to bang wheels. Well.....

Yeah. Vettel isn't helping himself. It may be calculated on his part to play mind games with Hamilton so he knows he's capable of anything, I don't know. But if he had just come out and said the car turned right after he let go of the wheel to gesture when It was accidental or that his left hand brushed the wheel on its way up to gesture, I think he comes out looking much better. Instead he has decided to go the convoluted route and make himself look worse.

By the way, is using the phrase "red mist" not a little offensive to women? Maybe I'm the only one making that connection, but it's always struck me as one of the last acceptable sexist or insulting phrases still allowed. (not trying to stir **** up, just genuinely curious)

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

By the way, is using the phrase "red mist" not a little offensive to women? Maybe I'm the only one making that connection, but it's always struck me as one of the last acceptable sexist or insulting phrases still allowed. (not trying to stir **** up, just genuinely curious)

Not in the slightest. Refers to the "red mist" of anger descending or rush of blood to the head. Oxford definition here but there are heaps more of a similar nature online if you want to give Google a shot.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

By the way, is using the phrase "red mist" not a little offensive to women? Maybe I'm the only one making that connection, but it's always struck me as one of the last acceptable sexist or insulting phrases still allowed. (not trying to stir **** up, just genuinely curious)

When people get angry, the facial muscles can become strained. This can lead to blood vessels bursting in the eyes which leads to 'red mist descending before the eyes'. Not sure why you'd think that's sexist - it affects both sexes equally.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Maybe I'm the only one making that connection..

Yep, you are.


Back to the matter at hand, a couple of well known F1 folks have some very interesting things to say about Ferrari. And I can't say I disagree with them.

http://www.darrenheath.com/blog/disgracing-themselves

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...-punishment-2/


Also, it's interesting that in the FIA's statement on the further investigation of the Vettel/Hamilton matter, it states:

“Following the recent incident at the Azerbaijan Grand Prix in which Car 5 (Sebastian Vettel) was involved in a collision with Car 44 (Lewis Hamilton), on Monday 3rd July, the FIA will further examine the causes on the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.

“A statement regarding the outcome of this process will be made available before the upcoming Austrian Grand Prix.”

Shouldn't it read '...the FIA will further examine the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.'? What's with the word "causes"?? Are they leaving the door open for Ferrari and/or Vettel to come up with a good excuse?? A mechanical problem, his hand hit the wheel, etc. could be used as the "cause of the incident" for example.

[bauble]

Shouldn't it read '...the FIA will further examine the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.'? What's with the word "causes"?? Are they leaving the door open for Ferrari and/or Vettel to come up with a good excuse?? A mechanical problem, his hand hit the wheel, etc. could be used as the "cause of the incident" for example.

I suppose they must also consider whether Hamilton's actions were in anyway to blame for the incident in order to be even handed in their decision making. After all two parties were involved, and to look at only one side would be deemed unfair.

[Kempi]

From Joe Saward's blog:

The interesting thing is that Ferrari will now see just how worthless its attitude towards the media has been in recent months. The team is about to get its arse handed to it on a plate. There is no sympathy at all in the media as a result of the team’s stupid decision to deliberately ignore the press. They can wail and gripe and no one cares (apart from a few sycophants and some Italians who only see red) because the company has blown the goodwill that it used to have. If you plant stinging nettles in your garden, you should not be surprised if you get stung. Maybe ignoring the press has allowed the team to focus more on getting the job done, but it was never an intelligent move. The point of Ferrari being in F1 is to sell cars and winning races is not the whole story. Engagement is important.

That's quite a bit of sour grapes based on self-righteousnes. In essence he is saying, the FIA should punish Vettel because Ferrari ignored the press. Implicitly he is saying that the press would not be calling for Vettel's head, had they been handled differently in the last few months.

This is bullshit. If Vettel is to be punished, it is because his actions were disgraceful and not because the press feels they should like or not like the behavior.
Interesting is also this:

Maybe ignoring the press has allowed the team to focus more on getting the job done, but it was never an intelligent move. The point of Ferrari being in F1 is to sell cars and winning races is not the whole story. Engagement is important.

Ferrari's job in F1 is to win the title. That in itself helps selling the cars. The press liking or not liking it is an additional effect. I agree with him that the press they get helps them get sponsors which helps them making money for the team. But as we discussed elsewhere, it is more about involving the viewers, not the press. And there are plenty of ways to do that in addition to the press.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Yep, you are.


Back to the matter at hand, a couple of well known F1 folks have some very interesting things to say about Ferrari. And I can't say I disagree with them.

http://www.darrenheath.com/blog/disgracing-themselves

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...-punishment-2/.

Well known definitely, but objective - far from it.
Both, particularly Heath, are so clearly biased in their opinions of Ferrari that they will go to extreme lengths to portray anyone in red as a product of satan.
Not the type of people I'd happily say I agreed with - unless you share the tin-foil hat with them?

[Greem]

For a slightly more balanced article, look to Will Buxton:

https://willthef1journo.wordpress.co...d-retribution/

No tin foil hat there.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Kempi

If it was illegal, how come they won WCC and WDC hat year with nodisqualfications/ points deducted?

Wow... okay.

This may be shocking, but they weren't caught, only suspected.
Hence why they legalized it because they couldn't really enforce it.

[S griffin]

Finally have got round to watching 2016 F1 review DVD and it's amazing to think Kyvat got a 10 second penalty for locking up and running into the back of Vettel. So by this logic accidentally hitting someone up the rear is as bad as deliberate contact!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

When people get angry, the facial muscles can become strained. This can lead to blood vessels bursting in the eyes which leads to 'red mist descending before the eyes'. Not sure why you'd think that's sexist - it affects both sexes equally.

Alrighty then. Learned something. It was described to me in a totally different way long ago, haha.

Will buxtons article below is really good. I'm curious though, why does vettel have so many points against him on his license?

[chillibowl]

personal preference is that there should be no further investigation. i dont like what Seb did and his penalty was light (as penalties sometimes are) but the race was a classic and imo why change a classic?

to have a hearing, 'lawyers' arguing their case, and the inevitable appeal which will follow....for what? so the FIA can exert its authority? so we can spend the next decade or so debating whether or not this has now become a tainted championship?

we finally have two top teams and two top drivers fighting it out and for me i want to see it play out on the track and not behind the closed doors of the Place de la Concorde...if history tells us anything, this always leads to less resolution and more controversy.

this smacks of the old era which i though everyone was hoping F1 was moving away from!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

personal preference is that there should be no further investigation. i dont like what Seb did and his penalty was light (as penalties sometimes are) but the race was a classic and imo why change a classic?

to have a hearing, 'lawyers' arguing their case, and the inevitable appeal which will follow....for what? so the FIA can exert its authority? so we can spend the next decade or so debating whether or not this has now become a tainted championship?

we finally have two top teams and two top drivers fighting it out and for me i want to see it play out on the track and not behind the closed doors of the Place de la Concorde...if history tells us anything, this always leads to less resolution and more controversy.

this smacks of the old era which i though everyone was hoping F1 was moving away from!

Here, here!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Greem

For a slightly more balanced article, look to Will Buxton:

https://willthef1journo.wordpress.co...d-retribution/

No tin foil hat there.

Thanks for the link Greem. A calmly written and (apparently to me) well reasoned explanation of the whole situation...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Thanks for the link Greem. A calmly written and (apparently to me) well reasoned explanation of the whole situation...

Agreed - seems a lot better than some of the deliberate 'bashing' (excuse the pun) articles written elsewhere.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Will buxtons article below is really good. I'm curious though, why does vettel have so many points against him on his license?

Originally Posted by Autosport

2016 British Grand Prix - running Felipe Massa off track (2 points)
2016 Malaysian Grand Prix - causing first corner incident with Nico Rosberg (2 points)
2016 Mexican Grand Prix - moving under braking (2 points)
2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - potentially dangerous move on Lewis Hamilton (3 points)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ton-brake-test

[BillWiskins]

Get out of here, Will Buxton, with your logic and reason. This is the internet!

No prizes for guessing that I'm very pleased at the prospect of further investigation into this and I hope Vettel has a hefty rulebook thrown at him. I don't care if it will 'spoil the championship' - I find it puzzling how anyone can call themselves a fan of motorsport whilst attempting to justify on-track antics like this, just because there are now two drivers from different teams who could win the title.

And still... nothing from the man himself? Did I miss it? It's amazing how much good a phrase like "I'm sorry, I messed up" could have done at almost any point since Sunday - I mean, less effective as time passes, but it would have been something. I hope part of his punishment is a direct-to-camera apology.

[RWill2073]

I'm wondering. Could having rotating stewards giving out penalties possibly lead to awkward or neutered decisions? Somewhere in here, it was posted that the stewards didn't want to give too harsh a penalty and affect a championship. If this is in their thoughts, maybe this is a problem? If the same stewards were at every race, they wouldn't have to worry about how they affected the future races. Kind of like they're afraid to break something for the next guy. Does anyone else think this is a problem?