Max Mosley speaks

[KC]

Max Mosley has spoken out about the letter from McLaren & Williams teams. McLaren and Williams may be a little out of their depth against Max, he is an attorney after all. His letter back to them makes it clear that they are the biggest stumbling block to any changes for F1, whether be be good or not.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=116148

The full letter can be read at crash.net, sorry they do not allow any links to their site.

[Peter Mallett]

Good response. As a Commercial Manager I write letters like that every day. I loved the "unfocused" remark.

Even if you don't like Mosley he does make a good defence of his decisions without actually driving them home. He's put the burden of proof on to Macaroon and Williams.

It'll be interesting to see whether anything further comes of this.

On a similar note I've just been reading Motorsport and the story about privateer teams being forced out by Bernie and what was then "F1CA" which became FOCA. The tactics were disgraceful. However it is the same people who then bought into the Concorde agreement, which in itself is a restrictive practice agreement.

So could this be the end of the CA?

[Lee Janotta]

We can only hope, Peter...

[NiceGuyEddie]

It seems as if Mosley is out for war. The tone has been set. This is the time for the manufactures to stand up and unite. The FIA has now presented itself more then ever as an dictatiorial entity, not tolerating any criticism or different point of view. They aren´t even prepared to step into dialogue. The input of the teams is obviously a farce. The FIA listens when the input of the teams is in their interest, when its not, they receive letters which can only be discribed as unnecessarily rude and childish (yes, it is my line of work as well).

Mosley (and thus the FIA because I suspect he is representing them, although he seems to think he is personally involved.) keeps forgetting that he needs the manufactures more than they need him. If they unite and decide to step out of F1, than F1 will die on the spot. The manufactures will remain, because taking part in F1 is not their core-business, it´s merely a choice of marketing. Besides, none of their competitors will be taking part in F1 either, because it no longer exist. And if the public demands an alternative to F1, I suspect GPWC to come up with a series, sooner than the FIA can.

Furthermore, Mosley is making the mistake to personify McLaren and Williams as manufacturers. One has made a super sportscar, the other has affiliated with some dodgy Renaults. Hardly a manufacturer compared to the likes of Renault, Toyota, Fiat, Daimler-Chrysler and FIAT. McLaren and Williams are frontrunning teams, wanting to protect the sport against amateurism (which is inevitable when development becomes a dirty word and the teams who simply can´t afford are subsidised just to make up the numbers). Allthough the manufactures-interest goes hand in hand with the protection against amateurism, it has got very little to do with the complaint McLaren and Williams have formulated against some of the rulechanges and the way it was implemented. Mosley doesn´t seem to spot the difference, and there for his reply is more focussed than anything Ron and Frank have remarked.

I hope Toyota doesn´t waste any time joining the GPWC. This has going on far too long and Mosley obviously isn´t the answer.

I don´t know if this case has been handed over to the board of arbitration, but when it has, Mosly is very unprofessional in not withhelding his comments until judgement was passed by the board.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
It seems as if Mosley is out for war. The tone has been set. This is the time for the manufactures to stand up and unite.

You are, of course, assuming that they are united in their stance on the rule changes. I think that Ferrari has already come out in favour of the changes.

Finally, I think whatever ******** we may think Max is,( I am all for the current rule changes BTW), F1 cannot do without a dictator. If F1 were to be run as a democratic organisation, nothing would evr be agreed on, and nothing would get done.

[NiceGuyEddie]

I suspect Ferrari lining up with Williams and McLaren in their battle against the FIA. In an article on f1racing.net, Luca di Montzemolo is quoted as saying that Bernie has gone too far. Of course, Bernie is not the FIA, but the article explains why Ferrari/FIAT is in full favour of GPWC. When sides have to be taken, no prizes for guessing what side Ferrari will choose.

Furthermore, F1 teams have been known to agree on several things in the past. It´s just that, when the FIA wants to take it that step further, they don´t bother asking the teams their approval, they just get on with it, implementing rules left and right. Of course Ron and Frank aren´t too pleased about it, yet they also know something has to be done.

But let us not forget that it is the frontrunners and midfielders that make the roadshow (although 2002 was no succes). Not the FIA and certainly not Minardi. And let us realize that the lack of show in 2002 wasn´t because technical development got out of hand, it was because one team got it right in every aspect. It wasn´t like Lotus having groundeffect or Williams having active suspension.

Be that as it may, I think Ron and Frank are entitled to a little more respect than Max is giving them right now.

This would be the perfect time for the manufactures to unite and split from the FIA. Mosley is obviously out for war, so why not give it to him?

[Valve Bounce]

Ron and Frank are self serving team owners who will do just about anything to get ahead of their opponents. It's dog eat dog out there, and the only reason they are complaining is because they have spent millions upgrading their computer technology to catch up with Ferrari. Now all that is going down the toilet.

I also remember another article where Luca de Montezolo came straight out and said they have no objections to the rule changes. So should we be surprised when Ferrari will win again this year? They still have the edge in development.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Ron and Frank are self serving team owners who will do just about anything to get ahead of their opponents. It's dog eat dog out there, and the only reason they are complaining is because they have spent millions upgrading their computer technology to catch up with Ferrari. Now all that is going down the toilet.

So? Thats a perfect reason to complain, isn´t it? I suppose you wouldn´t be too happy either when your multimillion-dollar investment gets worthless because of some rulechange you haven´t asked for. The way in which the FIA went about their business, isn´t helping either. And when you file this perfectly logical complaint, you get mouthed off. What is that all about?

And of course its dog-eat-dog out there. Thats the nature of any form of professional sport, especially when it gets mixed with multimillion dollar investments.

Are we now going to use that against the teams that compete succesfully in this murderous environment?

[Peter Mallett]

I think the point is more of one which surrounds what F1 is? If you think that F1 is purely a technological battle then your point is well made. If you accept that it is a sport and as such sports must operate to certain rules which can be subjective in the least then Mosley has a good point.

The teams mentioned may have a reason for complaint due to costs but they are part of the cause and therefore must accept an element of responsibility. I don't believe Mosley has done anything but criiticise a letter. In my view he's keeping his leagal powder dry. I'm not familiar with French Law (I assume the FIA is governed by French law) but there is clearly an issue which may need to be resolved in courts.

However, I also presume that if the regulations have been accepted by a majority then they are now the rules and as such need re-negotiation before they can be changed.

To write letters which confuse issues opens one up to all sorts of response. In this case I think Mosley's was pretty good. Although personnaly I'd have said something like.

"Thanks for your letter I note the contents and if you think you've got a case then provide the substantiation. But I won't pay you for that work so you might as well get on with racing."

[NiceGuyEddie]

I think a letter to the extend that you propose, would´ve been far better. Yet Mosley can´t resist and takes it personal, resulting in a rather emotional letter. Not smart, to say the least.

By that as it may, I do not see why McLaren and Williams should take the blame for rising of the costs, simpy because they are not complaining about it. They are complaining about the new rules taking away the nature of the sport, which makes it a true pinnacle. You can either agree or disagree, their complain remains valid. Yet. Mosley treats it as an invaled one.

Rules like the new superpole qualifyingformat, the restrictions for the technicians to work on the car between race and qualifying, new point-system and so on is to increase spectacle in a rather artificial way. Not about cutting costs. Not on the shortterm anyway. And the troubled teams can only be helped on the shortterm, so no team is really helped by those rules. Furthermore, Frank and Ron raise the point of safety. Without being a teamowner, driver or technician, Mosley slaggs it off like there is no tomorrow, whereas Frank and Ron do have feedback from drivers and engineers.

Of course there should be something done about costcutting. Any team, or manufacturer would be happy to spend less money, no matter how big their budget is, but unless the FIA constitutes a maximum budget, the money will be spend no matter that Minardi and Jordan fail to keep up.

I don´t think we, nor the FIA, can expect Williams, Ferrari, Sauber, or any other team, to include the wellfare of other teams in their businessphilosofy.

If Formula1 can not survive in its own natural habitat (which is a 100% competitive environment), than its allready dead.

[kdr]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
This would be the perfect time for the manufactures to unite and split from the FIA. Mosley is obviously out for war, so why not give it to him?

how long till those same manufacturers leave when they keep finishing 4th to ferrari, williams and mclaren?

i have no real opinions on max...other than the fact he'd chew and spit-out ron and frank in any debating chamber!

[Only edited to make the quote stand out from the rest of your post! Runar]

[KC]

I agree with Peter Mallet.

Here are some of the problems...

1. Formula 1 is so expensive that teams like Minardi, Jordan, and Sauber cannot compete against Ferrari, Williams, McLaren and to some degree Toyota and BAR-Honda. Their budgets cannot keep up with the inflation going on in F1 right now.
2. The FIA sees the way the wind is blowing and being the political body they are, seeks to position themselves on the winning side. They ask the teams to meet and discuss possible changes to the rules to keep the minnows from quitting the series. According to Max, the very day of the meeting the teams all held their own meeting excluding the FIA. This was done to upstage the FIA and give the perception that the teams are truly united and in control.
3. This enrages the FIA so they issue forth draconian measures to force the issue. This is done to force the teams to address the issue that they have been skirting.
4. Now, instead of the teams and the FIA getting together and hashing it out, they have chosen to start a "mine's bigger than your" contest in the press. All the while nothing constructive is being done. This delaying action favors the large teams who get the rules positioned in their advantage.

This is nothign more than the same battle of rhetoric and perception we all see evey day in government politics. All are seen to be doing somehting while they all straddle the fence and hang on to the money.

[Mal]

The touble is this sort of public war could do more to damage to sport than Ferraris domination did last year. What we need in these difficult economic and political times is good clean sport and not a bunch of spoilt rich boys throwing there toys around - F1 will loose all public sympathy that way however good the arguments.

[Kicking-back]

McLaren and Williams have said today any arbitation will take place confidentially, so hopefully a public war is avoided.

[Logrence]

Ferrari face a £90 million cut in their budget - THAT'S why they're in favour of the rule changes.

[sgw2]

Mr. Williams and Mr. Dennis are elistist A-h****. Always have been. They think their sh** doesn't stink and they say so. These two men are responsible for the exit of Prost, and Arrows. What they are doing with Stoddard's Minardi is purely evil. They have for too long potrayed themselves as upholders of F1 morality.

I am glad to see them public put on the spot. It will be intersting to see if they can respond coherently or not.

Bravo Mr. Mosely!

[Peter Mallett]

As much as I respect Dennis and Sir Frank I think sqw2 is right. Any arbitration happens in confidence, these "hearings" are never open to the public unlike a court case so the fact that they are saying it will be confidential suggests to me that they are preparing for a failure.

I may however be wrong, but I think they should just shut up and get on with racing. As I said before this is really a sport and so is subject to rules and interpretation that don't always sit well with business plans. That's why somebody once said "if you want to make a small fortune, go motor racing with a big one".

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
As much as I respect Dennis and Sir Frank I think sqw2 is right. Any arbitration happens in confidence, these "hearings" are never open to the public unlike a court case so the fact that they are saying it will be confidential suggests to me that they are preparing for a failure.

Hello....

Read Mosley´s letter? Its public alright.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by sgw2
Mr. Williams and Mr. Dennis are elistist A-h****. Always have been. They think their sh** doesn't stink and they say so. These two men are responsible for the exit of Prost, and Arrows. What they are doing with Stoddard's Minardi is purely evil. They have for too long potrayed themselves as upholders of F1 morality.

I am glad to see them public put on the spot. It will be intersting to see if they can respond coherently or not.

Bravo Mr. Mosely!

Excuse me? Do you have at least ANY idea???

Both Frank and Ron have raced under the rules that the FIA (hello, pay attention) have set. Both of them have been pretty succesful at it, yet, as we all know, succes comes at a prize in Formula 1.

How are they responsible for the exit of Prost and Arrows? Wouldn´t you say that both Alain Prost and Tom Walkinshaw are responsible for that? They weren´t able to raise the cash. It´s only natural that you than pack your bags and leave.

What exactly are they doing to Minardi? They´re not being to eager to sponsor them. So, thats pure evil these days? In my book that would be quite normal.

Williams and McLaren are not responsible for the raise of budgets in F1. That they spend the cash is a simple necessitiy. It´s easy to complain when you´re not a toprunner, but if you are priorities change. Winning in an ultra-professional, technological sport comes at a prize. Of course something should be done, but, again, how does that make Williams and McLaren responsible?

It is only fair that you take a step back and look at McLaren and Williams´ interests. They want to keep winning like every other competitor, but they want to keep winning in a sport that can rightfully be called the pinacle of motorsport. You can only have that by having the best drivers in the world AND having the most technically advanced car in the world. Technical advancement does NOT end with driveraids, and if Im not mistaking, both Ron and Frank aren´t oppossed to the ban on driveraids.

How anyone can agree with you, is way beyond me.

[Mal]

'Hello....

Read Mosley´s letter? Its public alright'

Of course it is but it was in response to Rn & Franks letter of 20th February which was made very public.

What was Moseley supposed to do after that?

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Mal
'Hello....

Read Mosley´s letter? Its public alright'

Of course it is but it was in response to Rn & Franks letter of 20th February which was made very public.

What was Moseley supposed to do after that?

What he was to do? He shouldnt have been so f***ing emotionally about it. It´s not much short of namecalling. It´s what happens when you feel you´re dictatorial claim to power is being questioned.

Both Ron and Frank are fully entitled to take the FIA to arbitration (so again, I really don´t see what anyones problem with Frank and Ron is). It´s only logical that they inform the FIA of their plans.

This isn´t very hard. This is about two teams that feel the image and outlook (and even safety) of Formula 1 is being harmed or at least threatened by the new rules. So, what do you do? You take those responsible (ic. the rulemakers, the FIA) to arbitration.

It can´t be much more focussed than that mr Mosley.

[Valve Bounce]

I think I have said what I needed to say in this thread. After this, it appears the argument is going round in circles, with very little new input. Godd luck, NGE. You have your likes and I have mine.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I think I have said what I needed to say in this thread. After this, it appears the argument is going round in circles, with very little new input. Godd luck, NGE. You have your likes and I have mine.

You were only stating the obvious. Of course Ron and Frank are self-serving teamowners. Last time I checked, they all were. Its a little naieve to buy into Stoddarts underdog-routine and than blame Frank and Ron for not having too much sympathy for a team that can´t keep up.

[Valve Bounce]

And when did Paul Stoddart come into this discussion against Max's rule changes? Is this a new injection into a dying cow? :confused:

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
And when did Paul Stoddart come into this discussion against Max's rule changes? Is this a new injection into a dying cow? :confused:

When some member remarked that what Frank and Ron are doing to Minardi (whatever that may be) is purely evil.