Webber v Klien -lap/qual. times ?

[RWC]

I'm one of those that's generally convinced of mark webbers' speed and -perhaps more importantly as a measure of sheer tallent- his speed in a dodgey car.
Any doubts i have don't worry me too much as i haven't exactly predicted he's gonna wipe the floor with shuey-there's still a lot to be proven....

However i haven't taken much notice this year.I knew klien had at least one very good race and have heard comments of other good moments.

I read an interesting article that has me wondering....

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=21880
Notice it says the person wondering what the fuss is all about with mark is "A former f1 and sportscar driver"!!

This has me amazed.Has Klien been that close to MW??
Personally i would expect him to be within 1/2 a sec in qualifying before i'd be praising him too much.Has he done that? How about the races?

Does anyone know of any websites that show best laptimes & Q times for this year ?...and importantly,can anybody add comments to certain performances?(ie driver x had problems no fault of his own,etc)

FWIW i'm not nessesarily believing the former f1 and sports car driver one bit.Even f1 drivers can live in a make believe world!

I thought i should check it out though

[SKT]

Originally posted by RWC

This has me amazed.Has Klien been that close to MW??

Does anyone know of any websites that show best laptimes & Q times for this year ?...

FWIW i'm not nessesarily believing the former f1 and sports car driver one bit.Even f1 drivers can live in a make believe world!

I thought i should check it out though

Well RWC this intrigued me too, and so I had to investigate, below are my findings from Formula1.com - a very reputable source.

Out of 12 races thus far, Qualifying wise it's virtually a dead heat - Race wise it's a different story but lets just take a look at the qualifying times because they are the most interesting. CK's times are bolded.

http://formula1.com/race/result/716/16.html Bahrain CK 1:32.332 vs. MW 1:32.625

http://formula1.com/race/result/719/16.html Monaco CK 1:15.919 vs. 1:15.725 dif .194

http://formula1.com/race/result/720/16.html Europe CK 1:31.431 vs. MW 1:31.797

http://formula1.com/race/result/721/16.html Canada CK 1:14.532 vs. MW 1:15.148

http://formula1.com/race/result/723/16.html Fra CK 1:15.065 vs. MW 1:14.798 dif .267

http://formula1.com/race/result/725/16.html GDR CK 1:15.011 vs. MW 1:14.802 dif .209

These numbers illustrate the power of spin in the paddock. Qualifying wise out of 12 races CK out-qualified MW in 3 races:
Bahrain (.293 secs)
Europe (.366 secs)
Canada (.267 secs)

In the 3 races below, CK was out-Qualified by MW by one position and by relatively narrow margins:
Monaco (.194)
France (.267)
Germany (.209)

These stats show CK in a much better light, and it illustrates that during Qualifying MW out-qualifies CK by 1/3 but taking the qualifying results from Monaco, France, and Germany where CK came very close to MW, a different picture materializes.

And so the former F1 pundits commentary regarding the hype about MW does carry some merit.

Interesting indeed.


1:32.332 1:15.919 1:31.431 1:14.532 1:15.065 1:15.011

[Kirk]

Here we have a driver, MW, who has displayed some of the characteristics that we associate with Michael and his winning formula. His assets are well documented by all those on Webber's bandwagon, but there are a few missing ingredients, and one of those is consistent speed which is conveniently ignored due to the Jag he is driving. Don't get me wrong I like Mark and I think he has tremendous potential, but he is far from proven and the hype is a tad unwarranted at this point in his career IMO. The fact is F1 followers are growing more and more desperate for someone to take over when MS retires.

[Snrub]

Great post SKT, that's very interesting. I've felt from the start that Klein has some real potential. He's still learning and he also has additional pressure that Webber doesn't have so I definately think he deserves a ride next year. (although maybe not with Jaguar because they're *********)

EDIT: Can't say I disagree, but keep the abuse out of it!/EDIT

[SKT]

Here are some more interesting stats based on info from formula1.com.

From my calculations based on the results posted for CK and MW respectively from Formula1.com, CK gains on avg 2.2 positions from qaulifying position to race position, and MW gains on avg 4.0 positions from qualifying position to race position.

Overview Qualifying:
MW out-qualified CK 9:3

Overview Race Results:
MW out-placed CK 7 times, 1 out of the 7 was because CK DNF

CK out-placed MW 3 times, all 3 times MW DNF

MW and CK DNF'd 2 times during the same race (USA & Monaco)

MW 5 DNF's (Trans, Spin, Loss Drive, Suspension, Engine)

CK 3 DNF's (Throttle, Accident, Accident)

There you have it. Let's see how MW fares in Williams.

[SKT]

Here are the individual links regarding stats for MW and CK respectively from Formula1.com

MW http://formula1.com/archive/driver/d...004/21/83.html

CK
http://formula1.com/archive/driver/d...04/123/83.html

[Armco Bender]

Don't forget Klien actually overtakes too!,just a shame he's driving that dung beetle of a car.I think he would be a good candidate for the second Williams seat.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Could it be a case of Webber overrated and Klien underrated?

[BootsOntheSide]

I'm not sure we've seen the best of Mark this year. The car isn't great, and maybe Mark subconsciously has his eyes on 2005, knowing that he's secure and set for far better things, whereas Klien will have a lot of motivation to prove people wrong.

[Kicking-back]

I think it's a case of Klien being underrated rather than Mark being overrated.

[Tweed]

I think it's a bit of both. I don't know how Klien's viewed in non-UK countries, but he was always going to be given a hard time here in Britain for 'stealing' Justin Wilson's Jag drive.

[HDTVKSS]

DPes Qualifying really ocunt anymore seeing as the cars have to carry race fuel loads? I think Mark has run a few 2 stoppers in contrast to Kliens 3 stoppers. If this is the case, then its not really fair to compare the 2 results.

Same goes for Ferrari to some degree, where Rubens would qualify a few places back but be running a 2 stopper. Qualifying results unfortunatley mean squat these days unless both cars on the same fuel load.

[monaroCountry]

Great post SKT, that's very interesting. I've felt from the start that Klein has some real potential. He's still learning and he also has additional pressure that Webber doesn't have so I definately think he deserves a ride next year. (although maybe not with Jaguar because they're *********) it!/EDIT

Klein definately does have great potential. Out of all MW co drivers I knew that CK would be the toughest (dont ask me how). All although he isnt as fast as MW at the moment, he can be in the future. Keep Klein in Jag for next year, hopefully he will progress into a better car the year after.

[SKT]

Originally posted by HDTVKSS
DPes Qualifying really ocunt anymore seeing as the cars have to carry race fuel loads?

Good point indeed however in either case it's still interesting to see how CK has done against MW.

There's much hoopla surrounding MW's greatness and potential greatness, so the question as someone here had noted, is MW over-rated or CK under-rated?

[RWC]

Ah thanks SKT!
Especially the DNF stats.

All these stats say a whole lot-CK(calvin Klien?LOL) is very close to mark but mark outraces him far more often than not.

I'm not a whole lot surprised at CK's speed-MW himself said right at the start that CK was genuinely quick

I still think that 'former f1 and sportscar racer' sounds like a biased idiot though LOL.

I guess the best thing about mark going to williams-all things considered- is that he is *exactly* the kind of driver they need
Personally i got sick of ralf and even gave up on monty ever being consistantly quick

[SKT]

You're welcome RWC, great thread, you got me thinking...

Hopefully MW will do well at Williams, and yes, I too got sick of RS.

IMO I think JPM and his inconsistency may be related to RS not wanting to forthright with all his set up experience - a difficult situation, should you or shouldn't you. However, the environment at Williams is that of the "team" over all else, and perhaps many at Williams were tired of the two not being willing team mates.

The rest of the season will prove interesting indeed, and 2005 should be one of the best seasons in recent history.

[shiny side up!]

FWIW, we all thought that '40 would be one of the best seasons in recent history as well. I guess it depends on what your definition of 'good season' is... If you like the red cars, this one is grand...