Future Grands Prix? - Page 111

Mike Harte · 1 Oct 2021, 10:29 (Ref:4076501)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

I wasn’t talking about the quality of the racing, I was talking about the quality of the circuits. Bahrain may occasionally make a great race, but Spa or Suzuka it ain’t. Most of them are bland autodromes and let’s face it they’ve hardly gained the following in Europe. Fact is classic venues and countries that have returned like Imola or Portugal have proven more popular among F1 fans

This is akin to saying that the quality of the writing within a book should only be judged by the quality of the cover. That is not true, either.

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 11:07 (Ref:4076503)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

I wasn’t talking about the quality of the racing, I was talking about the quality of the circuits. Bahrain may occasionally make a great race, but Spa or Suzuka it ain’t. Most of them are bland autodromes and let’s face it they’ve hardly gained the following in Europe. Fact is classic venues and countries that have returned like Imola or Portugal have proven more popular among F1 fans

Apologies - when you said Bahrain and Abu Dhabi have hardly been classics, I didn't realise you were referring to the tracks. Now I understand that - how does a track become a 'classic'?

I think we also need to remove a European focus from F1. It's true that the majority of teams are based in Europe, but the following should be global (IMO). It's also strange you say the tracks have hardly gained a following in Europe - could that be because European fans are more likely to go to European tracks due to simple geographical reasons?

As for the final point of Portugal being a classic country - how can a country be 'classic' in terms of F1? If Portugal is popular with F1 fans because it is a classic country (having been absent from the calendar for quarter of a century) then you're effectively saying that F1 can never host future races in new countries.........

I have to admit, I've never personally viewed the quality of F1 as being based on the country hosting the race.

S griffin · 1 Oct 2021, 11:53 (Ref:4076505)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Apologies - when you said Bahrain and Abu Dhabi have hardly been classics, I didn't realise you were referring to the tracks. Now I understand that - how does a track become a 'classic'?

I think we also need to remove a European focus from F1. It's true that the majority of teams are based in Europe, but the following should be global (IMO). It's also strange you say the tracks have hardly gained a following in Europe - could that be because European fans are more likely to go to European tracks due to simple geographical reasons?

As for the final point of Portugal being a classic country - how can a country be 'classic' in terms of F1? If Portugal is popular with F1 fans because it is a classic country (having been absent from the calendar for quarter of a century) then you're effectively saying that F1 can never host future races in new countries.........

I have to admit, I've never personally viewed the quality of F1 as being based on the country hosting the race.

Point 1. I’m not even gonna bother answering that question because it should be never need to be explained. I mentioned Spa, that’s an example of a classic track

Point 2. Never forget your original customer. F1 has long since looked further than Europe and it hasn’t exactly worked out has it? There have been some decent new venues, but most haven’t exactly added anything to the calendar. No wonder we’ve seen a return we’ve started to see the return to the calendar, like Austria, Netherlands, France, Portugal. Fact is the majority of F1 fans come from many countries in Europe, so there you go

Point 3. A classic country is one with a great fanbase and/or history. And I did not say F1 should stop going to new venues, you’re clearly putting words in my mouth there

Point 4. Quite frankly the British GP with it’s big crowds proves otherwise…

Greem · 1 Oct 2021, 12:01 (Ref:4076507)

*sigh*

chillibowl · 1 Oct 2021, 12:44 (Ref:4076511)

The benefit of 23+ races a season means older and well attendend venues do not have to be cut in order to accommodate new locations anymore. Certainly not like in the old days anyways.

Down side of 23+ race calendar though is that there are 23+ races to watch.

So while it feels wrong to me to simply dismiss a place because of its location or because it doesnt have enough history, i do worry about dilution.

I love basketball and football but I don't come close to watching every game. Tennis and golf are great but again far to much content to watch across an event.

F1 with a limited calendar was unique for me in that even with our busy lives/schedules one could watch all the scoring bits.

Now its becoming about content creation and an audience that is increasingly more likely to watch the drive to survive version recap then actually watch all the scoring bits.

If im being honest, already feel myself not enjoying this change...or maybe its more fair to say i know i wont be able to keep up with it like i used to.

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 12:45 (Ref:4076512)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

Point 1. I’m not even gonna bother answering that question because it should be never need to be explained. I mentioned Spa, that’s an example of a classic track

Point 2. Never forget your original customer. F1 has long since looked further than Europe and it hasn’t exactly worked out has it? There have been some decent new venues, but most haven’t exactly added anything to the calendar. No wonder we’ve seen a return we’ve started to see the return to the calendar, like Austria, Netherlands, France, Portugal. Fact is the majority of F1 fans come from many countries in Europe, so there you go

Point 3. A classic country is one with a great fanbase and/or history. And I did not say F1 should stop going to new venues, you’re clearly putting words in my mouth there

Point 4. Quite frankly the British GP with it’s big crowds proves otherwise…

I was just trying to understand the point you raised, and engage with it in a constructive manner. To go back to the original post, imagine the following was posted in 2019 in response to a proposed race in Portugal:

'I question whether we really need another race in Europe. Paul Ricard and Catalunya have hardly been classics and we're now getting Zandvoort too'

I'm sure many would say we should give it a chance and see what happens, who knows how it may turn out? - and I would agree with them. The same then is surely true of racing in the Middle East? How do we know how good it will be, if we are already questioning the validity of racing in a region because of other circuits in different countries?

Or maybe another way of asking the question - how does Qatar go about becoming a classic F1 venue?

(and forgive me if I am not understanding the point you are making still - but simply stating 'I’m not even gonna bother answering that question because it should be never need to be explained' doesn't really help the conversation flow)

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 13:00 (Ref:4076514)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillibowl

So while it feels wrong to me to simply dismiss a place because of its location or because it doesnt have enough history, i do worry about dilution.

I think you have identified part of the issue - it's not about the location or history, but about the saturation / dilution of the racing 'content' that may be of concern.

IMO, F1 should visit as many locations as possible and run on a varied selection of tracks. Is this another case where the US sporting system(s) may offer a variation that could be looked at?

I think of NFL - where each team doesn't play every other team in a season, but has a form of rotation in the fixtures.

** appreciate this is drifting towards a 'Fix F1' post - sorry **

Going back to the 'fixtures', we currently / recently have races that could theoretically be grouped as follows:

Asia-Pacific
Australia
China
Japan
Russia

Europe
Austria
Belgium
Britain
Netherlands
Hungary
Monza
Monaco
Emilia Romagna
France
Portugal
Spain

Middle-East
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Saudi Arabia
Abu Dhabi
Qatar
Turkey

Americas
Canada
Mexico
Miami
São Paulo
Austin

My proposal would be for the season to be made up of 3 Asia-Pacific rounds, 5/6 Europe, 4 Middle-East and 3 Americas. Rotating within each region on a year-by-year basis. This would give a 15-16 race season, with the profile of each event elevated due to the periodicity with which they appear.
(For the purists, a handful of venues may be permanent fixtures.)

chillibowl · 1 Oct 2021, 13:11 (Ref:4076515)

Personally i think such a rotation would be great

and would no doubt better help F1 reach its net zero/carbon reduction goals.

Less is more would be my mantra going forward but sadly when it comes to tv content, more is more.

And for those paying attention, tv and content creation is my new windmill to tilt at!

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 13:35 (Ref:4076519)

Other advantages with a rotation:

Familiarity (see Catalunya) can be restricted.
New venues can be trialled.
Year-specific events can be deconflicted or coordinated with.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 1 Oct 2021, 13:52 (Ref:4076521)

I don't think the European focus from F1can be removed. As someone who is not from Europe but has spent a lot of time here and who has followed F1 for a long time, F1 is Eurocentric. Just look at the history of motorsport. It's Europe where motorsport started, oval racing started here in England and it's Europe that has lead the way in developing motorsport into the various formats we have, like endurance and single seater racing.

To say the tracks outside Europe have hardly gained a European following, I don't think it is strange at all. It's partly due geographical reasons but it's also due the fact Europe has already well established motorsports series and venues, so why endure a seven hour flight there and back to Abu Dhabi or Bahrain?

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 13:58 (Ref:4076524)

I agree that if we remain Eurocentric over where races should be held, then the European focus of F1 can't be removed.
I don't think it's impossible to do - but I feel the series (and therefore the fans) have to accept more races outside of Europe for that to happen.
I admit though - it's a bit chicken/egg over how that is achieved....

**bjohnsonsmith** · 1 Oct 2021, 14:23 (Ref:4076530)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I agree that if we remain Eurocentric over where races should be held, then the European focus of F1 can't be removed.
I don't think it's impossible to do - but I feel the series (and therefore the fans) have to accept more races outside of Europe for that to happen.
I admit though - it's a bit chicken/egg over how that is achieved....

Why can't F1 remain Eurocentric? This is where the majority of the fan base is. The majority of races and teams are in Europe. If it hadn't been for that, these last two seasons would have been in serious trouble because of the Covid pandemic.

crmalcolm · 1 Oct 2021, 14:40 (Ref:4076535)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why can't F1 remain Eurocentric? This is where the majority of the fan base is. The majority of races and teams are in Europe.

I'm not saying it can't, just that I would personally prefer a less Eurocentric approach.
I'd prefer to see F1 (and fans) accept that nationality should not be a barrier to hosting an event.

Richard C · 1 Oct 2021, 15:08 (Ref:4076538)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

Never forget your original customer.

Given the age of the sport, aren't most all of them dead at this point? If you are looking to grow new fans, are you only to focus on the decedents of those "original customers"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

F1 has long since looked further than Europe and it hasn’t exactly worked out has it?

We might as well just throw in the towel on this entire "World Championship" thing. It's clearly all a joke. And if I somehow managed to enjoy a race that is not in Europe, I must be doing something wrong. Someone please help me correct my errors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why can't F1 remain Eurocentric? This is where the majority of the fan base is. The majority of races and teams are in Europe. If it hadn't been for that, these last two seasons would have been in serious trouble because of the Covid pandemic.

If you believe in a growth mindset (from a business perspective), then some type of a formal declaration that the sport is Eurocentric is a loosing proposition. As a fan, I also tend to think I want the pie to be bigger (more fans, more variability) vs. keeping the pie small (focus on legacy tracks in Europe and a stagnant product).

I find this entire conversation very odd. It borders on jingoistic.

I think the commentary on quality of tracks without getting into geography is fine. I also think the driver here is old vs. new tracks with their typically being a very distinct flavor difference. Might the answer be to try harder to capture the flavor of older tracks, or... host events on older tracks outside of Europe that are not on the calendar? I know there are a number of iconic tracks in the US that fans would love. I also know that generally they don't want to jump through the hoops that F1 requires of them. Or they are other reasons they don't seem to fit the desired mold.

Richard

Richard C · 1 Oct 2021, 15:32 (Ref:4076543)

A few indicators of how F1 is doing in the US.

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/tick...prix-sold-out/

Quote:

Over 360,000 people are expected to be at Circuit of the Americas for October’s Formula 1 Aramco United States Grand Prix — the race is officially a sell out.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/202...-cup-wnba-srx/

Quote:

The Formula 1 season is now averaging 944,000 viewers on the ESPN family of networks, up 43% from the first ten races of last year’s months-delayed, shortened season (660K) and up 39% from the ten-race average in 2019 (678K). This season is also up 55% from last year’s full-season average (608K) and up 40% from the full 2019 season (672K).

Maybe it's just that people are excited to get out of the house due to Covid, or maybe while they have been in the house, they are watching races. I don't know. It seems like good news to me. Maybe they should consider another race here in the US. Miami or someplace like that.

Richard

**bjohnsonsmith** · 1 Oct 2021, 15:41 (Ref:4076544)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not saying it can't, just that I would personally prefer a less Eurocentric approach.
I'd prefer to see F1 (and fans) accept that nationality should not be a barrier to hosting an event.

Is nationality a barrier to hosting an event? If there is a barrier, or objection to hosting an event outside of Europe, I think it has been largely due to nothing coming from these events, in terms of creating and developing motorsport in those countries. How long has there been a Chinese GP, yet no Chinese F1 team?

Some of these countries who have hosted GPs, like India, S. Korea and Turkey never had a motorsports culture or any home grown motorsport. Getting these countries to host GPs just seemed like a money making venture for Bernie. Despite its success, will Azerbaijan lead to any developments in home grown motorsport? I doubt it.

By all means, if a country wants to host a GP, let them but if no motorsport development is going to come from it, then they are throwing a lot of money away for nothing and F1 will remain Eurocentric.

S griffin · 1 Oct 2021, 15:57 (Ref:4076547)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Is nationality a barrier to hosting an event? If there is a barrier, or objection to hosting an event outside of Europe, I think it has been largely due to nothing coming from these events, in terms of creating and developing motorsport in those countries. How long has there been a Chinese GP, yet no Chinese F1 team?

Some of these countries who have hosted GPs, like India, S. Korea and Turkey never had a motorsports culture or any home grown motorsport. Getting these countries to host GPs just seemed like a money making venture for Bernie. Despite its success, will Azerbaijan lead to any developments in home grown motorsport? I doubt it.

By all means, if a country wants to host a GP, let them but if no motorsport development is going to come from it, then they are throwing a lot of money away for nothing and F1 will remain Eurocentric.

Exactly my point. You mention Turkey. Great racetrack, yet it never gained a following in terms of spectators and therefore lacked the atmosphere of other great venues

To be fair there are plenty of other countries outside of Europe that F1 has more or less the same following as it does in Europe. North America of course and let’s not forget South America, specifically Brazil. Also Japan and Australia. Even India can be justified, considering we had Force India, plus Chandhok and Karthikeyan. But there’s been plenty of places where the interest just isn’t there and it makes you wonder why they need to keep it

For me the problem with having over 20 races a season means that maybe people seem to forget quality is more important than quantity

Alan52 · 1 Oct 2021, 21:37 (Ref:4076574)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

A few indicators of how F1 is doing in the US.

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/tick...prix-sold-out/

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/202...-cup-wnba-srx/

Maybe it's just that people are excited to get out of the house due to Covid, or maybe while they have been in the house, they are watching races. I don't know. It seems like good news to me. Maybe they should consider another race here in the US. Miami or someplace like that.

Richard

I really think the Netflix effect has been a big plus for F1 in the US.I know a number of people in Australia who have never had any interest in F1 ,or motor racing for that matter,that have been drawn in by Drive To Survive,

Richard C · 2 Oct 2021, 02:21 (Ref:4076616)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan52

I really think the Netflix effect has been a big plus for F1 in the US.I know a number of people in Australia who have never had any interest in F1 ,or motor racing for that matter,that have been drawn in by Drive To Survive,

I agree it has been a big factor to pull in viewer. And it sounds like the viewers are sticking with it.

Richard

bathurst77 · 2 Oct 2021, 08:15 (Ref:4076638)

GPs outside europe are not successful?

Australia
japan
sth africa
brazil
argentina
mexico
canada

S griffin · 2 Oct 2021, 10:09 (Ref:4076642)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

GPs outside europe are not successful?

Australia
japan
sth africa
brazil
argentina
mexico
canada

Yes, these ones have managed to build up a great fanbase. It's others where the interest isn't there that is the problem

Alan52 · 2 Oct 2021, 11:34 (Ref:4076645)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, these ones have managed to build up a great fanbase. It's others where the interest isn't there that is the problem

Having been to it I would consider Abu Dhabi a big success.It is sold out every year.Although it doesn’t draw many local citizens it is basically a Woodstock For Expats working in the Gulf and draws a big number of tourists.Singapore is similar.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 2 Oct 2021, 11:56 (Ref:4076646)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

Exactly my point. You mention Turkey. Great racetrack, yet it never gained a following in terms of spectators and therefore lacked the atmosphere of other great venues

To be fair there are plenty of other countries outside of Europe that F1 has more or less the same following as it does in Europe. North America of course and let’s not forget South America, specifically Brazil. Also Japan and Australia. Even India can be justified, considering we had Force India, plus Chandhok and Karthikeyan. But there’s been plenty of places where the interest just isn’t there and it makes you wonder why they need to keep it

For me the problem with having over 20 races a season means that maybe people seem to forget quality is more important than quantity

Turkey is a great track but I think the issue there is primarily cultural. Has there ever been any form of grass roots motorsport prior to hosting the race, and having hosted a race, has that kindled any interest in developing a home grown series? With India it's also cultural. You have Chandhok and Karthikeyan but they are nothing compared to Virat Kohli and Rohit Sharma. Cricket is practically a religion.

With regard to fans outside of Europe, I don't think anywhere else really comes close to Europe as a fan base. Europe's population is around 746 million, North America is roughly 580 million, plus there is the popularity of NASCAR in the US, which will detract from F1 and the population of South America is around 422.5 million.

Formula 1 would be much better off concentrating on their target market, which is the fans. So let's have another race in South America, rather than another race in the desert.

I agree about the number of races.

chillibowl · 2 Oct 2021, 12:43 (Ref:4076650)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan52

Having been to it I would consider Abu Dhabi a big success.It is sold out every year.Although it doesn’t draw many local citizens it is basically a Woodstock For Expats working in the Gulf and draws a big number of tourists.Singapore is similar.

Sold out by virtue of less seating though?

Its a fair point to raise about locals not attending.

For sure some of that has to be that locals dont care about motorsports and certainly not at F1 prices, but also how well are events promoted to this potential local audience?

Follow up question...do they sell alcohol at every event...at Abu Dhabi for example?

Drinking is a pretty popular tradition and if you want a 100k spectators then you need booze right? I suppose thats an incredibly western opinion though.

S griffin · 2 Oct 2021, 13:50 (Ref:4076661)

Maybe it helps that Abu Dhabi has been a season closer, so plenty of fans travel there knowing it’s their last chance to see F1 cars in action. Also I wonder how many buy it months in advance in the hope it going to be a title decider? And considering there is hardly any local interest, it must make it easier to buy tickets

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