Super A's chassis woes & 2004(?) Sauber

[slicktoast]

Remember the 2004 Sauber and how closely it didn't copy the 2003 Ferrari? Or was that the year before? Anyway, there were a lot jokes and complaints about it here. Now the new Honda powered team needs a chassis and may be denied being on the grid come Brazil. Just when we need to get another team up and running it could all end up in the bin. What made it possible for that Sauber to pass? Why can't that be applied to the new team?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by slicktoast

...and may be denied being on the grid come Brazil. Just when we need to get another team up and running it could all end up in the bin. What made it possible for that Sauber to pass? Why can't that be applied to the new team?

Ern... They will start the season in the last race of the year ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Ern... They will start the season in the last race of the year ?

They might have got one car built by then.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Thats totally wrong about the Sauber being a clone of the Ferrari - the Sauber was blue, whereas the Ferrari was red I think. Any idiot can see that's how it passed scrutiny by the FIA!

[TEAM78]

Originally Posted by Andydickens

Thats totally wrong about the Sauber being a clone of the Ferrari - the Sauber was blue, whereas the Ferrari was red I think. Any idiot can see that's how it passed scrutiny by the FIA!

Its just so obvious, just ask any girl. even they can tell the difference between these two cars

[slicktoast]

My apologies for the idiotic thread.

[Raglanparade]

So Honda paint the 2005 BAR black ??

[Valker]

According to Reuters Super Aguri could run old Arrows A23 (Minardi PS04).

[shambles]

I heard that rumour

I wouldn't of thought they'd be that effective though - why don't Super Aguri just wait untill 2007, and spend this season developing a car - suspend thier IRL programme, and focus thier efforts on 2007.

It's all very reminiscent of Mastercard Lola - but I hope not. Good luck Super Aguri!

PAUL

[Kicking-back]

It's not reminiscent of Mastercard Lola at all.

This has manufacturer backing and was launched at Honda HQ, rather than a wing and a prayer effort.

[ASCII Man]

Using 4 year old chassis' seems to me to be quite farçical for a supposed manufacturer backed outfit...
It would be better as others have said before to use 2006 as a development year and go for 2007 to take the plunge in the deep end...

[shambles]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

It's not reminiscent of Mastercard Lola at all.

This has manufacturer backing and was launched at Honda HQ, rather than a wing and a prayer effort.

They both had/ve considerable backing - ok, Aguri have an advantage due to Honda's willingness to help on the technical side, but the comparisons are still quite stark.

Two entrants - that (are) both attempted/ing to scrape together a Formula One racing car, in the same time as the rest of the field will really be putting the finishing touches on the car.

Added to the fact that they have brought some four year old Arrows cars, which wasn't the most competitive in the field - spells farce, Mastercard Lola was also a farce, so in that respect they are very much linked.

PAUL

[BootsOntheSide]

Running the Arrows amkes sense, they have time to update itas much as possible, and they would have no trouble modifying it to run a restricted 2005 Honda V10. The 2002 Arrows was a pretty neat chassis for its time, and changes liek aerodynamics (which are easy to update) ahve acccounted for most of the improvement in speed since. They can use this eyar to gain valuable experience and possibly a few points, without forfeiting their $48m.

[Marbot]

Story here also.The Arrows IIRC was actually tested by Minardi and found not to be worth the hassle of using it as a race car in place of their own.No prizes for guessing who will be tail-end-charlies in 2006.

[Super Tourer]

What I find curious is this.

Paul Stoddart bought the Arrows cars along with the intellectual rights to them, SA are now rumoured to be looking at buying those cars and rights from PS in order to make it their chassis - apparently this is OK within the concorde agreement.

If Honda are helping/backing/in some way supporting, SA why can't they sell the 2005 BAR cars and the property rights to SA without infringing on the concorde agreement?

[ASCII Man]

I've been wondering the same thing..
It worked for Benetton/Ligier & Ferrari/Sauber so why not for Super Aguri?

[Marbot]

Because the BAR/Honda team are still currently competing,Minardi and Arrows are not.This is what Aguri is thinking of purchasing.http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...es_art_id=6487

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I've been wondering the same thing..
It worked for Benetton/Ligier & Ferrari/Sauber so why not for Super Aguri?

These were allegedly similar cars,but the differences were great enough for that not to be the case.Looks aren't everything you know.

[Javi]

At least for the benetton and ligier, and if my memory still works, FIA inspected both chassis and found "no common parts", well, that´s what they said...

[Marbot]

The problem for Aguri is that he can only use a chassis that has not been built by a current team.RedBull bought the Minardi's and so Aguri can't use those.He can't use the 2005 BAR's because they are a current teams design.

[kipper]

I presume that the reason why Super Aguri are so keen to purchase four year old Arrows is because if they can finish in the top 10, they will be entitled to significant amounts of money for travel, TV, etc. With Toro Rosso running an updated Minardi with a detuned V10, it might be possible for a team with an up to date Honda engine to finish ahead of them and claim the money for a more comprehensive assault on 2007.

[slicktoast]

What about when BARF1 officially becomes Honda Racing F1? Will that mean that BARF1 is no longer a "current" team and its intellectual rights can be sold?

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by kipper

I presume that the reason why Super Aguri are so keen to purchase four year old Arrows is because if they can finish in the top 10, they will be entitled to significant amounts of money for travel, TV, etc. With Toro Rosso running an updated Minardi with a detuned V10, it might be possible for a team with an up to date Honda engine to finish ahead of them and claim the money for a more comprehensive assault on 2007.

It depends on the equivalency, there are some concerns amongst the manufacturers that (initially anyway) restricted V10's may be more competive than V8's and that they have effectively been sold a 'pup' as far as the regs go.

Allowing detuned V10's was a way of keeping Minardi (in it's former guise) in F1 and removing the obstacle of it having to secure a V8 deal and develop a bespoke car. Now of course, Minardi has been bought by a multi billion pound organisation so the former doesn't really apply to their new circumstances.

I would imagine that should it produce a car of some sort, Aguri will look at running restricted Honda V10's, as opposed to V8's - there will be a plentifull supply without impinging on Honda's main engine programme, as an independent (non-manufacturer) team they will be entitled to run V10's, plus of course it could provide a useful ongoing benchmark for Honda to measure their V8 by.

[Marbot]

I'll add a link to your contribution ST,and agree that restricted V10 Honda's could be the way to go.At the very least they'll be reliable.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by slicktoast

What about when BARF1 officially becomes Honda Racing F1? Will that mean that BARF1 is no longer a "current" team and its intellectual rights can be sold?

Only in name is it new,just like STR.They are not a new team and don't have to pay the $48 million that a new team would.