March 722 - 732 - 742 - 752

[allenbrown]

Two posts from 15 Jul 2004.

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

The original tub colour looks as though it was yellow . It seems very odd that most of the major bits are stamped 732-55 , including this No stencilled on the fuel bladders with an April 73 date.

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I just bought Motoring News for 1975 and there are some very high 732 numbers appearing on the back of F2 grids that year. I'll find them again.

As lighting fast and as responsive as ever, I've just found what I'd promised to look for. MN's report on Mugello in July 1975 gives chassis numbers for the whole grid and shows three 732s at the back of the grid. Roland Binder's car is unnumbered but Max Bonnin's is 732/59 and Luis de Almenara's is 732/44. These seem odd numbers to be showing on chassis plates but I can't see where else the reporter ("M.T.") could have got them from.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

The transcribed March 732 build list I've seen has Binder's car as chassis 17 [not 18 as F1R] and it's the last built. Bonnin's car was the ex Brambilla chassis 5 and de Almanera's the ex Williamson chassis 14. I think the MN typesetter was ****ed.
Putting together the transcript with what we know of the earlier 732s from magazine observations on a good day...

1: Works car for Beltoise at Mallory [chassis number MN on debut] then Stuck. Not known 74-5 then 1976 John Calvert [G8 series, described as the Beltoise Mallory car] to Geoff Friswell and badly damaged at "Gold Cup" 1976. Maybe rebuilt by Roger Orgee on a 742 tub.

2: Unknown, therefore strong candidate for the Heroes Racing car of Hiromu Tanaka that appears in Japan F2.

3: Unknown

4: Brambilla family, for Vittorio. Used by Pesenti-Rossi and Colombo 1974, unknown 75 but seems to be the Brambillas experimental Lancia engined project in 76

5: Brambilla family, for Ernesto. To Max Bonnin 1974-76

6: Works, Jarier. Original tub badly damaged Thruxton, Easter 73 and rebuilt into 73A for Ray Allen to enter, but not appear obviously, in the F5000 class for the British GP that was projected and didn't happen.
Plate carried on a useful life with Jarier on a new tub

7: Jacques Coulon. Probably the Laurent Ferrier car of 1977

8: Colin Vandervell's F2 car.

9: Mike Beuttler, destroyed at Rouen, rebuilt as chassis 15 for Sutcliffe but may have kept 9 on it in light of subsequent observations. To Ken Smith [NZ] 1974 and Ken Shirvington 1975-78 at least

10: Works Beltoise then Jarier spare. 1974 Brian Lewis for Andy Sutcliffe/Vittorio Brambilla/Maxime Bochet. 1975 Roger Heavens: Antonio Prado. Allegedly sold to France for h/c 1977. For sale on Classic Car website in France in 2003, plate very new, allegedly having been rebuilt as 742 for Depaillier!

11: Bill Gubelmann 1973-76. Badly damaged at Mallory, when Wilds' Shadow landed on it and Gubelmann. Perhaps scrapped.

12: Brian Lewis for Jacques Coulon. Rebuilt as 74B? AS 25/4/74 sold to Mike Sullivan 'the ex Coulon F2 chassis' which is being updated to Formula Atlantic spec'. [Could be the older Coulon car chassis 7] If so, then tested as Atlantic by Crawford and Nicholson summer 74 then taken to Trois Rivieres for Depailler. Sold immediately after to SCCA driver Tom Sauerbrei. I've just traced Sauerbrei [who had the car to 1976 at least] and hope to learn more.

Plate on a 732 for sale in France 2003, but paper work for FIA says ex Joliat June 1793. Firstly see chassis 16 [new to Joliat in March records] and secondly, I didn't think there was much hillclimbing in France during the revolution.

13: Roland Salomon to 1975 then perhaps Beat Blatter on account of both being Swiss hillclimbers...

14: Wheatcroft for Williamson, unknown 1974 then de Almanera.

15: See 9

16: Jacques Joliat to 74, John Beattie [UK] since 1975???

17: Roland Binder to 1975

[allenbrown]

732-1 Works car for Beltoise at Mallory [chassis number MN on debut] then Stuck. Not known 74-5 then 1976 John Calvert [G8 series, described as the Beltoise Mallory car] to Geoff Friswell and badly damaged at "Gold Cup" 1976. Maybe rebuilt by Roger Orgee on a 742 tub.

Calvert was running a March in libre in 1975. I haven't yet seen it described by either rag but the Jock McBain Trophy program at Ingliston at the end of the season has a points table for the Scottish Libre Championship and lists Calvert's car as a "March 742 Ford". I'd presume that 732-1 with some 742 bits on it.

Who's John Beattie?

Allen

[allenbrown]

Calert's March is finally identified in a MN report at Croft in August. It's a March 742 with a 1850cc BDA.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

See my email re. the Mike Beuttler 732-9 , this car run by Brian Lewis Racing was tended by Greg Mobbs from Australia , who I happened to talk to the other day , Greg was with Beuttler when he totalled the car and did himself no good , a new tub and other stuff was ordered for the rebuild and in anticipation Greg unrivetted the chassis plate ready to be re-installed on the new tub, however when it arrived the tub came with a new plate 732-15 , so Greg put the plate 732-9 in his toolbox where it remains to
this day in South Australia.

We may be able to solve some cars by looking at the tubs , as I have been lately , e.g. 74B-12M in the USA has a very different front angle on the top panel than has 74B-U1 , 74B-12M looks more like a 712/722 tub , with the downward slope starting at the shock absorber pick up cross beam rather that other cars starting about 6 inches further back and much less slope as well.

Unless a car was modified later , one definate clue is the rear gearbox crossmember on cars up to and including 1974 was a fabricated item , it appears that from 1975 on the cars had a cast magnesium rear crossmember , 75B-8 certainly does as do all others whose photos I have looked at , if we used this a guide it may tell us the cars origins.

Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

Bryan

712M and 722 tubs should be differentiated; difference was that the front tapered down on the latter to accomodate the lower profile nose allowed by the use of side rads.
The 74B was originally designed with front rads, and mid season they began to run the F2 style bodywork with side rads. My guess that the difference between the tubs in U1 [probably in any case as we've discussed likely a 732 tub, similar front rad to original 74B] and 12 delivered after season had started in US/Canada, reflects the design modification.

Chris

[driftwood]

12: Brian Lewis for Jacques Coulon. Rebuilt as 74B? AS 25/4/74 sold to Mike Sullivan 'the ex Coulon F2 chassis' which is being updated to Formula Atlantic spec'. [Could be the older Coulon car chassis 7] If so, then tested as Atlantic by Crawford and Nicholson summer 74 then taken to Trois Rivieres for Depailler. Sold immediately after to SCCA driver Tom Sauerbrei. I've just traced Sauerbrei [who had the car to 1976 at least] and hope to learn more

this carwas tony hansford in 96 ish restored and aced then sold to usa as 73 #1 car i beleive

john beattie is engine tuner worcester area

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Two posts from 15 Jul 2004.

As lighting fast and as responsive as ever, I've just found what I'd promised to look for. MN's report on Mugello in July 1975 gives chassis numbers for the whole grid and shows three 732s at the back of the grid. Roland Binder's car is unnumbered but Max Bonnin's is 732/59 and Luis de Almenara's is 732/44. These seem odd numbers to be showing on chassis plates but I can't see where else the reporter ("M.T.") could have got them from.

Allen

Allen, I presume the MT you quote was Murray Taylor. A good journo, and ran a decent F3 team, perhaps not to be trusted on tub no.s though ! John Beattie is a new one on me too, has he ever raced the car ?

[allenbrown]

MT boasted in a column that MN had sent a journalist to every F2 race from 1973 to 1975. This makes them a very rich source for F2 chassis data - but, as you say, not perfect!

[driftwood]

i wonder of the high chassis plate number could be misconstrued as AM number??

how many 732 cars where built? 20 odd? i do not have the march book to hand to check
how did the 733 numbers go? 1-20 like f2 cars did?
was wondering if it might be a mongrel 733 chassis with high number?? or should i exit stage left sit down and be quite till spoken to?

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

how many 732 cars where built? 20 odd? i do not have the march book to hand to check

17. Scoll up nine posts.

[driftwood]

too fat n lazy to do that!!
so what logic is there for these high chassis plate numbers then - is it possible the tub AM number was used to stamp up the plate by the team in ignorance?
we need a march employee now to answer this sort of querie

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

too fat n lazy to do that!!
so what logic is there for these high chassis plate numbers then

Strewth - you want me to come round and read it to you?

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Bonnin's car was the ex Brambilla chassis 5 and de Almanera's the ex Williamson chassis 14. I think the MN typesetter was ****ed.

That T330 still not finished then I see...

[driftwood]

T330 tis for sale as I sold the car to the man!!
Now he has no time to do rebuild so if i can sell it and return him his ££ he will be happy but i suspect it will be mothballed for 2 years while he deals with another project he has going into

my own 290 is progressing slowly
where is 752#9 who had it etc
i have plate for 732=13 ( i think poss 12?? ) on my desk somewhere under all my mess twas given to me with a 733 roller i inherited from france (well it was sold to me as an f2 car!!) but it was definatly f3

[Chris Townsend]

Drifty

Do you mean to say that that highly polished 732 with a too new to be true chassis plate on it [reading 732-1] that appeared a while back actually held the remnants of Depailler's Trois Rivieres car?
Who owns that car now? What kind of "history" was it sold with?

752-9 was works car initially for Leclere/Tambay then Stuck. I think that as the two Elf drivers later got the magnesium tubbed 12 adn 19, 9 was probably the one that the works tell MN was kept with an alloy bulkhead to cope with Herr Stuck's more vigorous approach to kerbs.
Where did it g? My money's on Japan

Now back to work [to answer Drifty's enquiry I'm writing an accompanying essay for an artwork that's being made to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster] and at some point you may be able to see me talking about it late night on BBC.

Chris

[driftwood]

I was barely around for the Aberfan disaster- was that was the slag heap slide in wales that killed the school children??
when u say late night tv u mean after 11 pm?

re march cars
i often wondered if #19 was misprint for 9 in the book so yr saying stuck had 2 chassis 9 & 19

re march 732 cars i may have confused you
732 Coulon car (# 12 ) was converted to 73 B #1 by factory and sent to usa
the chassis came back to uk many years ago Tony had the car he restored it in stp coulon colours but ran it as 73b 1 car in hscc events he sold the car to usa ( i saw it BRICS 2002?) so the f2 car is now atlantic car and chassis 12 does not exist but i am sure i have the tag!! i must find it i think the petty coat government has intereferred with the pot i left it in years ago !!
its at times like this i am reminded of the t shirt i saw
it takes 32 muscles to frown but only 4 to ***** slap

[Bryan Miller]

Yesterday , I went a-trolling through race-cars .com archives looking at tub photo's , results ===

All the 712/722 type cars front alloy panel starts the downward slope at the front shock absorber cross beam, then all the 732/73B/742/74B etc. start further rearward at the support beam inside the tub connecting the front two magnesium bulkheads , approx 6 inches further rearward.

Until , the fly in the ointment was 742-13 Jimmy Missuet car which was as per 712/722, am I being suspicious in believing March may have sold an old 712/722 dudded up as a new 742 to some unsuspecting French Hillclimber.
I would love to know what the tub number was on that car.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Bryan

Funny you should mention this as I was talking to a someone yesterday who has extensive experience of these cars on this very subject.

He told me that there is no downward slope at all on the 712M/713M/71BM tubs (see "712M/18" on race-cars) then it starts at the dampers on the 722 tub (see "722/8") and then slopes from the rear pickup for the front suspension on the 1973 tubs (see "732/10"). That seems to match the race-cars.com photos.

I'd phoned him to see if he could identify a tub that was under a mid-1980s Can-Am car. He identified it as a 1971 March chassis which matched what Chris already suspected.

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Allen

The reason for my renewed interest is it looks like 74B-12M is coming over here, no not me, and I will get to look at the tub number finally in a few months , and that car looks like it is on a 712/722 tub , which is what I have suspected all along , as a wild guess , I think that will turn out to be 71B-12M , rejigged and replated somewhere/sometime IN PERIOD.

Bryan.

[Dan Rear]

See my Chevron B18 post. Kim M added something on his March's this morning. Forgot to ask where the ex-Coaker 712M went, do we know this anyway? Or was it written off in Mike's accident at Oulton? He said their dad insisted it be sprayed yellow from the original green!

The ex-Calvert 722-29, after Kim went to a mate of David Aukland's. Kim couldn't remember his surname, John something, a St Helens Estate Agent, who climbed it. After that it went to Peter Riley.

The next March, the 'bitza' 742/752/74B' etc, was the ex-Multiglide car. Kim recalled it as being a 712M originally, he picked it up down south, and fettled it at Bicester with various new/used parts. He confirmed Alan Jones had had some outings in it in Atlantic. It had various engine problems, but went well otherwise.

I asked which was the best car he ever drove, he said without hestiation, the works 792 at the Brands Aurora 79 race.

Fascinating conversation, to me at least, Kim very happy to discuss the 'good old days' !!

[allenbrown]

Great work Dan!

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

The ex-Calvert 722-29, after Kim went to a mate of David Aukland's. Kim couldn't remember his surname, John something, a St Helens Estate Agent, who climbed it.

John Kitchin?

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

The next March, the 'bitza' 742/752/74B' etc, was the ex-Multiglide car. Kim recalled it as being a 712M originally, he picked it up down south, and fettled it at Bicester with various new/used parts. He confirmed Alan Jones had had some outings in it in Atlantic. It had various engine problems, but went well otherwise.

That will be the car that Chris lists as 712M/"9". It appears on the build record as 712M/10 for Jaussaud but then chassis 9 and 10 swapped plates during 1971 and the ex-Lauda 712M/9 goes to a French hillclimber wearing "712M/10" and Colin Andrews gets 712M/10 wearing "9".

So that makes it a 712M/74B/742 I reckon. I think I'll list it during Mather's time as a '742 [712M/"9"]' as he called it a 742 more often than anything else. Or something like that.

Allen

[driftwood]

782 was the best pre GE car 792 suffered from porpoising as march did not get the GE concept working at that time 802 was a better car

842 was allegedley the best f2 car even RT said it was better than rh6 but he had the motor to win over bmw but in japan nakajima 842 honda was the winner!!

[Dan Rear]

Allen, re 712M/9 (or 10). It may have been called a '742', but also a '752'. Kim says some of the parts he collected from Bicester were off the various real 752s damaged in the Thruxton accident at the start of that year, ie a sidepod from Depailler, and a top section, I think, from Ronnie's car. So perhaps '752' is more accurate...

[allenbrown]

He first entered it as a 752 (at least I assume the journalist took the info from the programme) in early 1975 but it was later referred to as 74B, 742/B, 752/B and then 742 in reports. A curious case of the spec seeming to go backwards.

I've already altered my database (it's a quiet day!) and found the quickest thing to do was to leave the specifications as I already had them (i.e 752, 74B, 752/B etc) and just set the underlying identity to be 712M/"9".

When we've talked about how to describe these bitzas in the past, I think we settled on combining the original spec and the latest spec and not worrying about the intermediate specs. So if a 712M had 722 bits still on it from 1972 and 73B bits from 1973 and 74B bits from 1974 and 752 bits from 1975, it would just be a 712M/752 in its final form. So, on reflection, how about 712M/752 [712M-"09"] for Kim's car? And, to make it all consistent, when John Sheldon raced it once at the end of 1974 as a "74B", I'll change that to 712M/74B.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Dan - did you ask Kim where the 712M/742 thing went after him?

Allen