Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Baltic Touring Car Championship Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Touring Car Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7 Feb 2008, 20:08 (Ref:2123489)   #26
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
I think they thought about something like this at some point, but dismissed it in favour of the common chassis-idea.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2008, 20:29 (Ref:2123508)   #27
PorscheFanNo1
Veteran
 
PorscheFanNo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Sweden
Winner's Circle
Posts: 1,484
PorscheFanNo1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPorscheFanNo1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I agree to 100%. The new GT2 Aston too is damn good looking and would fit perfectly as a DTM car. Why dont DTM just take the FIA-GT2 rules and run as sprint races? We would get damn good racing!
PorscheFanNo1 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2123522)   #28
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
The problem might be cost-containment. The GT2 rules are comparatively wide open, so throwing tons of money on such a project might bring some big improvements, which could in turn lead to an ultra-expensive arms race.

As of now GT2 is almost completely based on costumer-cars and the expenses for the R&D have to be recouped by the car sales, while still keeping them reasonably priced. With two manufacturers that are ready to spent a whole lot of money, it would probably soon get ugly and deterr other manufacturers from entering the series.

Another problem might be, that for a good GT car, the road going counterpart has to be designed with racing already in mind, else you might end up with a less-than-perfect platform, and without a choice to compete against a better suited car...
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2008, 21:40 (Ref:2123578)   #29
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The next problem is that both Mercedes and Audi don't have a suitable GT2-car. And they are so deeply embedded in the championship that no way they would be what would effectively be, thrown out of the championship. Add to that that a GT is not a touringcar, so they would have to change the name in DGM, witch doesn't sound as good and familiar....
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 00:22 (Ref:2123710)   #30
Alex K
Veteran
 
Alex K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,713
Alex K has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Easy mates, you#'re coming to the point, wherewe might say who cares about DTM? I dunno about you, but I thought about it recently and IMO Mercedes-Benz and Audi wouldn't lose much by entering Le Mans Series (Audi is there already, but with two or three more R10 from Rosberg, Abt and Phoenix + Joest doing only USA, this would be one hell of a championship with Pug's), plus Merc in GTS or GT... Man, that's not gonna happen.
Alex K is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 09:10 (Ref:2123890)   #31
zac510
Veteran
 
zac510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
zac510 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What's the point in changing DTM to something different? At this rate of adoption, every racing series in Europe will be either GT2 or GT3 spec, then you'll complain it's all the same!

To me, over here on this island, VLN looks like what DTM once was with regard to the cars and privateer/manufacturer balance.
zac510 is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 10:25 (Ref:2123942)   #32
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
I think the point was not to switch with DTM to GT2 rules, but to have a ruleset for DTM, that takes some clues from GT2, especially the unibody as comapred to the tubeframes.

As for the VLN: It's more like the DRM than like DTM: Porsche domination in the fastest class and then a bunch of Bimmers. Could use some Ford Capris, though :P
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 11:39 (Ref:2123993)   #33
Valenok
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 257
Valenok should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Tubeframe shassi is cheap alternative to touringcar and sportcar.
DTM is enough expensive to have problem in that way
Valenok is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 16:48 (Ref:2124231)   #34
duke_toaster
Veteran
 
duke_toaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
European Union
Englandland
Posts: 5,100
duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner
Add to that that a GT is not a touringcar, so they would have to change the name in DGM, witch doesn't sound as good and familiar....
They're not even touring cars now!

DTM cars are as divorced from road technology as LMPs. One of the makes use a Honda V8 (you can't get an A4 with a V8 anyway) and the only part that is common with the road car is the roof panel.
duke_toaster is offline  
__________________
Marbot : "Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier."
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 17:19 (Ref:2124252)   #35
gwyllion
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Belgium
Posts: 8,738
gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!gwyllion is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke_toaster
you can't get an A4 with a V8 anyway
You don't consider S4 and RS4 to be A4s?
gwyllion is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2124315)   #36
duke_toaster
Veteran
 
duke_toaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
European Union
Englandland
Posts: 5,100
duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwyllion
You don't consider S4 and RS4 to be A4s?
They are based on the A4 but they aren't called A4. Maybe they could call the DTM kit the S4 or RS4, but the car will still be a purpose built fraud anyway.
duke_toaster is offline  
__________________
Marbot : "Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier."
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2008, 19:09 (Ref:2124320)   #37
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
I think the point was not to switch with DTM to GT2 rules, but to have a ruleset for DTM, that takes some clues from GT2, especially the unibody as comapred to the tubeframes.
Yes. I don't want DTM to switch to a GT2 series. This BMW looks great, so why can't Mercedes and Audi build a 4-door C-class and A4 which are looking like this BMW? Real cars, real racing...
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Feb 2008, 05:06 (Ref:2124666)   #38
racer69
Veteran
 
racer69's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Australia
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 10,040
racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by zac510
What's the point in changing DTM to something different? At this rate of adoption, every racing series in Europe will be either GT2 or GT3 spec, then you'll complain it's all the same!
I personally like the idea of many championships adopting the same regulations. Means manufacturers can build the one car to cover alot of series, allows 'cross-participation', and makes international racing alot easier.

Remember also that the DTM is a descendant of the DRM, which started out as a touring car based series but evolved into Group 5 and by its end was a sprint race Sportscar series allowing the likes of the Porsche 956


Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE
Real cars, real racing...
Now doesn't that slogan sound familiar
racer69 is offline  
__________________
"The Great Race"
22 November 1960 - 21 July 1999
Quote
Old 9 Feb 2008, 06:32 (Ref:2124688)   #39
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke_toaster
They're not even touring cars now!

...the only part that is common with the road car is the roof panel.
Exactly. It was a VERY long time since DTM had anything to do with Touring cars other then the legacy name. There is a real TC in Germany, but that is called ADAC Pro Cars or something like that. DTM cars are full breed purpose-built sportscars and nothing else.

Those two series should probably switch names...

Last edited by stedevil; 9 Feb 2008 at 06:35.
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Feb 2008, 12:54 (Ref:2124880)   #40
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer69
Now doesn't that slogan sound familiar
Yep, but this is what I miss in the current DTM.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Feb 2008, 22:24 (Ref:2125190)   #41
duke_toaster
Veteran
 
duke_toaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
European Union
Englandland
Posts: 5,100
duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer69
I personally like the idea of many championships adopting the same regulations. Means manufacturers can build the one car to cover alot of series, allows 'cross-participation', and makes international racing alot easier.
Yeah, we've already got a set of regulations like that. It's called Super 2000.
duke_toaster is offline  
__________________
Marbot : "Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier."
Quote
Old 11 Feb 2008, 01:13 (Ref:2126148)   #42
kmchow
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location:
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Posts: 3,919
kmchow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke_toaster
Yeah, we've already got a set of regulations like that. It's called Super 2000.
Imagine if 15+ countries adopted S2000 like they did ST? That would be amazing! There's World Cup of Soccer, F1 and then S2000!
kmchow is offline  
__________________
Supertouring Forever and Ever...
Quote
Old 11 Feb 2008, 04:23 (Ref:2126200)   #43
racer69
Veteran
 
racer69's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Australia
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 10,040
racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke_toaster
Yeah, we've already got a set of regulations like that. It's called Super 2000.
DTM is hardly likely to adopt S2000 regulations though are they. The only time the DTM has been part of a 'world formula' for Touring Cars was from 1984-1992, when it ran to Group A regulations (though they modified them slightly)
racer69 is offline  
__________________
"The Great Race"
22 November 1960 - 21 July 1999
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 06:18 (Ref:2126981)   #44
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmchow
Imagine if 15+ countries adopted S2000 like they did ST? That would be amazing!
Well, 11 countries already have a TC (though I guess the Baltic states run 1 series together). Look at the eligable countries list on http://www.fiaetcc.com/2k7/

DTM however will never be apart of it, at least not unless it starts to return to it's original format of the early 1990ies.
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 09:23 (Ref:2127040)   #45
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The list of countries is quite nice, although not every championship is completely or even dominantly S2000. In Italy, Portugal and Germany to count the number of S2000-cars you barely have to use your second hand. In Russia there are a bit more, about 10 I thought. In Finland a lot of cars have been given a lot of dispensations to fall in the S2000-class, with turbo's and completely different weights. That leaves Sweden, Danmark and he UK as proper S2000-championship. I'm not sure about the Baltic championship.
So there is a lot more ground to gain. I think a good step would be that it's easier to get a car homologated. The current deal between the Swedes and the Brits inwitch they automatically homologate cars witch have been homologated in the other country. Offcourse national autorithies should be carefull not to be to liberal considering proposals of their own countrie, it would lead to chaos, but in general this maybe should spread more over Europe.
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 12:55 (Ref:2127169)   #46
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Maybe it's time for DTM to rethink the whole used-car business. If they are not able to maintain a twenty car field, even with ride-buyers and two year old cars, they should really either think about radical cost cutting new regulations or about introducing a second privateer friendly class of cars. The used cars are already like a 2nd division, why not going on step further?

How about this:
- 2 Divisions, racing together.
- Div1: Current DTM cars and regs, four or five new cars from both manufactuers, old cars can be sold to privateers, but no monetary support from Audi and Mercedes and no weight breaks.
- Div2: Cheaper tubeframe cars, no (or limited) manufacturer involvement, maybe spec chassis, with mfg specific body and engine.
Something like this: http://www.rileytech.com/PDFs/Riley_GT_Handout.pdf
I'm sure Riley could also fit four-door silouettes on their GT-chassis and with the current exchange rate, these cars aren't much more expensive than Super2000, if at all. Pratt and Miller have a Pontiac G6 (same platform as Opel Vectra IIRC) chassis and there are some other manufacturers of such chassis.

Single class Touring car racing has only been a trend of the last 20 years, maybe they should look back at what worked in the past?
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 18:02 (Ref:2127326)   #47
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
- Div2: Cheaper tubeframe cars, no (or limited) manufacturer involvement, maybe spec chassis, with mfg specific body and engine.
Something like this: http://www.rileytech.com/PDFs/Riley_GT_Handout.pdf
I'm sure Riley could also fit four-door silouettes on their GT-chassis and with the current exchange rate, these cars aren't much more expensive than Super2000, if at all. Pratt and Miller have a Pontiac G6 (same platform as Opel Vectra IIRC) chassis and there are some other manufacturers of such chassis.
Yep (but to be honest I didn't expect the Riley car would be so expensive)

By using a single make or very tight technical regs a tubeframe car can be relative cheap (see V8Star, NASCAR). A 800 bhp NASCAR Cup car costs around $125,000-$150,000. Why has a DTM car 4 or 5 times more expensiver to be?
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 18:41 (Ref:2127355)   #48
helgi
Veteran
 
helgi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Russian Federation
Sergiev Posad, Moscow Region, Russian Fe
Posts: 1,546
helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Speed-King,say it to Aufrecht and Co...As for me,it's a great idea!
I think,american cars with their middle-20 century technologes are even too expensive. European Silhouettes are safer too.So its a normal cost for a modern safe powerful racing car.
Team bosses have no rights to economize on pilots' lives.That is why i'm fond of DTM,not american oval races.
helgi is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 20:48 (Ref:2127443)   #49
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
I am not convinced a DTM car is much safer as a NASCAR Cup car.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Feb 2008, 21:23 (Ref:2127480)   #50
duke_toaster
Veteran
 
duke_toaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
European Union
Englandland
Posts: 5,100
duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Why do we need a new set of tech regs that will cause even more incompatable gear when there's already a functioning world formula that has plenty of makes and is used by many championships?

Super 2000 is working, it's a nice set of technical regulations as it features normal cars but accomodates large family/executive cars like the Vectra and 3-Series as well as diesels and ethanol, has costs under control and produces good racing. Really, there's no need to look for a new solution. It's like having the key in your pocket but proceeding to pick the lock.
duke_toaster is offline  
__________________
Marbot : "Ironically, the main difference between a Red Bull and a Virgin is that Red Bull can make parts of its car smaller and floppier."
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Will PROCAR survive? Harves Australasian Touring Cars. 270 19 Jul 2016 03:39
Will Minardi survive 2003? Yoong Montoya Formula One 9 11 Nov 2002 14:10
Will CART survive? kmchow ChampCar World Series 33 13 Jun 2002 08:43


All times are GMT. The time now is 14:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.