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Old 7 Nov 2018, 17:34 (Ref:3861676)   #426
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Two questions:
Was Lowe directly responsible for the 2018 car or was it just a rehash of the 2017 car?
If the 2018 car was his, how many compromises were forced on him?

Williams have now spent 18 months with Lowe finding his feet, and now as his tenure should start producing results they fire him and find someone else, seems crazy to me, but in line with Williams old revolving door employment policies.
The 2018 car is Lowe's baby, a radical design to push them up the grid as I recall....

Look back at some of his pre-season quotes about the car and their aspiration. His post race quotes are almost the stuff of legend, last time out he resorted to 'the team did a great job to get two cars home in good condition..' or words to that effect!

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Old 7 Nov 2018, 20:41 (Ref:3861706)   #427
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The 2018 car is Lowe's baby, a radical design to push them up the grid as I recall....

Look back at some of his pre-season quotes about the car and their aspiration. His post race quotes are almost the stuff of legend, last time out he resorted to 'the team did a great job to get two cars home in good condition..' or words to that effect!

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Assuming this is true (have no reason to doubt it), I would say that in many ways the Williams situation is a poster child for why the current situation is so bad and why more technical freedom is likely not the savior of good racing or in this case, to ensure viability of small teams.

Given a fixed technical spec, its likely for the solutions to coalesce around a single design even if lots of design freedom is allowed. It will be VERY crazy at first as teams might be all over the place with their solutions with LARGE performance gaps. But in the end, Team X is successful, so a percentage of the of other looks at the details and copies it. The next seasons some large chunk of the copy cat solutions are making progress. The more seasons you use the same regulations, the more that basic design is refined. This repeats until eventually everyone is running very similar designs.

So it is harder and harder to find radical solutions that outperform the de facto standard implementation. Even then... you might find a different solution, but it might actually take more than a season to unlock it's true potential against a very well optimized existing solution. This is especially true when fighting for 10ths of seconds on track.

For a small team, they can try something radical, it then doesn't deliver, so they sink below the surface as they tumble down the grid. They then either revert back to the old design, or push on with the radical one in the hopes that it bears fruit. All the while they see funding dry up due to the lack of performance.

In the end, radical designs are a massive gamble for small underfunded teams. For all you know you could be betting it all on a new concept that a well funded team developed and test behind closed doors and then discarded as the actual performance gain may not exist.

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Old 7 Nov 2018, 22:05 (Ref:3861720)   #428
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For a small team, they can try something radical, it then doesn't deliver, so they sink below the surface as they tumble down the grid.
The Williams isn't exactly radical though. They simply increased the rake and tried to do a higher-downforce Red Bull style car.

Unfortunately, all that happened instead was that their car was no longer as good on low-downforce high-speed tracks, meanwhile they hardly improved at all on high-downforce low speed tracks.

In trying to fix the weaknesses, they removed the strengths. I imagine they will re-appreciate their powerful Mercedes PU, and re-focus on maximising points at Monza and Canada etc, and forget about trying to be competitive at Monaco and Hungary etc.

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In the end, radical designs are a massive gamble for small underfunded teams.
Williams are still trying to build their own gearbox and rear suspension, when they could buy a package from Mercedes Grand Prix for a fraction of the price. Likewise McLaren refusing to purchase a cost effective Renault rear-end package.

Surely this is madness and the height of inefficiency!? Force India, HAAS, Sauber and Toro Rosso show how it should be done. You buy the gearbox and rear suspension from a works team and you bolt it to your privateer midfield car. Simple, easy.
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Old 8 Nov 2018, 16:10 (Ref:3861824)   #429
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Assuming this is true (have no reason to doubt it), I would say that in many ways the Williams situation is a poster child for why the current situation is so bad and why more technical freedom is likely not the savior of good racing or in this case, to ensure viability of small teams.

Given a fixed technical spec, its likely for the solutions to coalesce around a single design even if lots of design freedom is allowed. It will be VERY crazy at first as teams might be all over the place with their solutions with LARGE performance gaps. But in the end, Team X is successful, so a percentage of the of other looks at the details and copies it. The next seasons some large chunk of the copy cat solutions are making progress. The more seasons you use the same regulations, the more that basic design is refined. This repeats until eventually everyone is running very similar designs.

So it is harder and harder to find radical solutions that outperform the de facto standard implementation. Even then... you might find a different solution, but it might actually take more than a season to unlock it's true potential against a very well optimized existing solution. This is especially true when fighting for 10ths of seconds on track.

For a small team, they can try something radical, it then doesn't deliver, so they sink below the surface as they tumble down the grid. They then either revert back to the old design, or push on with the radical one in the hopes that it bears fruit. All the while they see funding dry up due to the lack of performance.

In the end, radical designs are a massive gamble for small underfunded teams. For all you know you could be betting it all on a new concept that a well funded team developed and test behind closed doors and then discarded as the actual performance gain may not exist.

Richard

Part of the problem is that if you take someone from a massive team like Mercedes it is not so clear who was responsible for what, so Williams would have been better waving the same bag of gold at the FI designer who is used to maximising resources and outsourcing. Harsh fact but it is easy to look good with another 999 talented people and Daimler's almost unlimited resources behind you. This doesn't mean that PL isn't of course a clever guy, but all about the right person in the right environment.


At Mercedes you can come up with developments, go straight to tunnel models and then full size for the car very quickly and bin it if it doesn't work, whereas Williams can't throw £150k a time at ideas that might not work, that is the difference. More worrying for Williams is that none of the developments have worked, the car is no quicker than it was in Melbourne and arguably has lost more ground, as has McLaren.
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Old 8 Nov 2018, 18:30 (Ref:3861849)   #430
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Says it all really doesn't it? Merc got rid of Lowe...I never really thought he earned his money there...he obviously didn't..else he would still be there..
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Old 8 Nov 2018, 20:31 (Ref:3861862)   #431
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I think he felt he’d achieved all he could there and decided on a new challenge
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Old 8 Nov 2018, 20:42 (Ref:3861868)   #432
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Part of the problem is that if you take someone from a massive team like Mercedes it is not so clear who was responsible for what, so Williams would have been better waving the same bag of gold at the FI designer who is used to maximising resources and outsourcing. Harsh fact but it is easy to look good with another 999 talented people and Daimler's almost unlimited resources behind you. This doesn't mean that PL isn't of course a clever guy, but all about the right person in the right environment.


At Mercedes you can come up with developments, go straight to tunnel models and then full size for the car very quickly and bin it if it doesn't work, whereas Williams can't throw £150k a time at ideas that might not work, that is the difference. More worrying for Williams is that none of the developments have worked, the car is no quicker than it was in Melbourne and arguably has lost more ground, as has McLaren.
Having been able to spend money on everything, I guess you would hope that Lowe would know where the most gains would be made for the least cost, both manpower and dollars.
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Old 10 Nov 2018, 01:51 (Ref:3862085)   #433
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Interesting article regarding the lack of results from Williams and McLaren:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...-fading-giants

"When Lewis Hamilton asked Ross Brawn in 2012 how Mercedes was possibly going to compete with McLaren when it had only half of the latter’s staff numbers, the answer was a massive investment and recruitment drive. Mercedes bulldozed its way to the front with huge investment and total commitment. Ferrari and Red Bull recognised the stakes had changed and responded."
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Old 10 Nov 2018, 03:14 (Ref:3862093)   #434
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Interesting article regarding the lack of results from Williams and McLaren:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...-fading-giants

"When Lewis Hamilton asked Ross Brawn in 2012 how Mercedes was possibly going to compete with McLaren when it had only half of the latter’s staff numbers, the answer was a massive investment and recruitment drive. Mercedes bulldozed its way to the front with huge investment and total commitment. Ferrari and Red Bull recognised the stakes had changed and responded."
A quite brutal appraisal! But it rings true.

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Old 10 Nov 2018, 04:57 (Ref:3862098)   #435
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Interesting article regarding the lack of results from Williams and McLaren:[/I]
Yet Force India and HAAS perform fine?

One thinks Williams' and McLaren's issue relate more to inefficiency.

Toyota always had among or the largest budget yet top drivers refused to drive there. BMW Sauber had a huge budget, yet were dreadful in the 2009 season. Honda also had a huge budget and was dreadful in the 2007 and 2008 seasons.
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Old 10 Nov 2018, 10:38 (Ref:3862123)   #436
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One thinks Williams' and McLaren's issue relate more to inefficiency.

Absolutely and perhaps it's time that those at the top of those two teams reconsider their positions.
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Old 10 Nov 2018, 17:11 (Ref:3862169)   #437
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Yet Force India and HAAS perform fine?
I think the point is that Williams and McLaren used to bring home WCC/WDC titles. Now the only teams capable are Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull. Not to take away anything from the two you mentioned (particularly Force India), but they are second class. Just like Williams and McLaren in their current guise.

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Old 10 Nov 2018, 21:54 (Ref:3862266)   #438
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I think the point is that Williams and McLaren used to bring home WCC/WDC titles.
Most recently McLaren-Mercedes were successful with Mercedes works funding, now directed to Mercedes F1 team.

Similarly, Williams-Renault were successful with Renault works engines, now prioritised to Renault F1 team.

If we go back earlier, Williams-Cosworth did well with a good ground effect gariste car, then Williams-Honda had the works engines and good success. Williams performed poorly with Judd engines, then Williams took on the Renault works engines with Renault choosing not to have a works team, they also had the ace designer Mr. Newey and produced many innovative and dominant cars. Then after two seasons with privateer ex-Renault "Mechachrome" engines, Williams accquired the BMW works engines and fundings and performed quite well. Eventually BMW preferred to run their own team, and Williams ran Cosworth, Toyota, Cosworth again and then customer Renault, with middle to rear-of-grid results. They were then momentarily competitive after signing up for customer Mercedes.

McLaren did well with TAG engines and then took on the works Honda engines from Williams which were already fully developed. Then they performed OK with Ford engines, tested and rejected Lamborghini Chrysler engines, choosing instead Peugeot engines with which they performed poorly, and then smartly poached the Mercedes engines from Sauber and poached Mr. Newey from Williams. Of course Mr. Newey left to the Stewart/Red Bull, and McLaren-Mercedes still performed OK. Of course, Mr. Whitmarsh fatefully authorised Mercedes engines for Brawn, which then became the Mercedes works team. Ron Dennis tried to pull a masterstroke by signing works Honda engines, however this time they were brand new and required development, instead of the fully developed units they put into their car the previous time. And finally, McLaren decided to run customer Renault engines instead and are consistently bringing up the last two rows being regularly lapped by the similarly-Renault-powered Red Bull cars, with Mr. Newey instead joining up with somewhat more developed Honda works engines at Stewart/Red Bull.

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Old 10 Nov 2018, 22:02 (Ref:3862267)   #439
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McLaren-Mercedes were successful with Mercedes works funding, now directed to Mercedes F1 team.

Similarly, Williams-Renault were successful with Renault works engines, now prioritised to Renault F1 team.
The only time McLaren won the WCC with a Mercedes engine, was in 1998. They haven't won it since. The last time a McLaren driver won the WDC, was Lulu, in 2008.

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Old 10 Nov 2018, 22:13 (Ref:3862271)   #440
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The only time McLaren won the WCC with a Mercedes engine, was in 1998. They haven't won it since. The last time a McLaren driver won the WDC, was Lulu, in 2008.
If anything, does that prove Mercedes right to get away from McLaren! Only three WDC and one WCC despite nearly two decades of lavish Mercedes works engines, Mercedes part-ownership and lavish Mercedes funding.

Similarly, BMW may have been disgusted with Williams producing zero WDC and zero WCC with their superb BMW "Ultimate driving machine" motors.
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 01:08 (Ref:3862297)   #441
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If anything, does that prove Mercedes right to get away from McLaren! Only three WDC and one WCC despite nearly two decades of lavish Mercedes works engines, Mercedes part-ownership and lavish Mercedes funding.

Similarly, BMW may have been disgusted with Williams producing zero WDC and zero WCC with their superb BMW "Ultimate driving machine" motors.
As we know, Mercedes powered Brawn and his double diffuser, the following year, securing both the WDC and WCC and then they morphed in to Mercedes as it is now.
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 03:09 (Ref:3862313)   #442
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As we know, Mercedes powered Brawn and his double diffuser, the following year, securing both the WDC and WCC and then they morphed in to Mercedes as it is now.
Williams also had a double diffuser in 2009. Didn't seem to help them much...
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 07:55 (Ref:3862341)   #443
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Williams have had some decent seasons in the past decade, but of course nothing like the success they used to have
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 09:13 (Ref:3862350)   #444
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Williams have had some decent seasons in the past decade, but of course nothing like the success they used to have
There used to be sponsor branding on every square inch of the car once too...
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 09:30 (Ref:3862352)   #445
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Williams in the hands of Rosberg were very good in 2009. Constantly in the top 5/6 with the Brawns, RBs and Toyotas. Nakajima on the other hand...

BMW Sauber really messed up 2008. Kubica was leading the WDC after Canada, and they decided to focus on 2009 which ended up being a disaster.
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 14:59 (Ref:3862399)   #446
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Williams also had a double diffuser in 2009. Didn't seem to help them much...
So did Toyota, finishing 5th in the WDC in 2009.
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Old 11 Nov 2018, 19:22 (Ref:3862512)   #447
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So did Toyota, finishing 5th in the WDC in 2009.
Indeed!
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Old 13 Nov 2018, 21:29 (Ref:3863167)   #448
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Here is an interview conducted with Claire Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOO_paHghu8

If you have an hour to spend.

Leaves me feeling uneasy about leadership somehow.

Will be interesting to see what others make of it.
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Old 14 Nov 2018, 07:58 (Ref:3863231)   #449
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Here is an interview conducted with Claire Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOO_paHghu8

If you have an hour to spend.

Leaves me feeling uneasy about leadership somehow.

Will be interesting to see what others make of it.
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Old 14 Nov 2018, 17:40 (Ref:3863326)   #450
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Interesting interview with an interesting person
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