FIA: "Ponders Downforce Limit"

[Sodemo]

Just read over on F1racing.net that the FIA are thinking about introducing a "limit" on the amount of downforce that cars can run.
Rather than limiting the number of elements or wing angles, this plan is to measure the weight of the downforce.

Max:
"Rather than, as at present, continually tweak the rules, Mosley said that imposing an 'x newton' limit on downforce would force aerodynamicists to focus on reducing drag rather than seeking maximum possible downforce, and this would enable the cars to run much closer together in fast corners.

"We would have to have an accurate and reliable means of measurement,"

Again, good idea, but how would they police it? Would they have to bring a wind tunnel to every GP in order to measure the downforce on a car?
Dont wholly agree that reducing drag is a good thing either, we want cars to pass yes? Well reducing drag is bad if it goes too far, as if you do this, you are effectively reducing the slipstream effect.

However I personally think that the slipstream that todays cars get is too big, if a car DOES get within say 2 car lengths of a car ahead and they are on a straight, he is more or less guaranteed a pass, as the slingshot is so big.
Wind back to 1993-1994 and drivers back then could sit behind a car and the slipstream was much less, the cars closed up much slower on straights.

Yes I do want to see more overtaking, but I personally do not want to see "push to pass" buttons or anything like that, Lessen the aero, lessen the drag slightly.

[Adam43]

This all depends on how it is implemented. It is also an idea that can be dismissed so easily. However to truly dismiss it you have to embrace it, consider it, and then fully understand it to think whether it would work or not. I feel this is why itis in the open.

My first feeling is 'no, don't be silly'. However maybe?

[Snrub]

Hmmm... Not a bad idea. You know it's possible that Max isn't a crystal meth user. Who would have guessed? I really don't think it will happen, but they do need to do something about the aero.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

My first feeling is 'no, don't be silly'. However maybe?

You must have thought the same thing about grooved tyres.

[browney]

I would have thought that this would be impossible to police, short of having costant wind tunnel testing. What air speed would the dowforce be policed at? Surley this is impracticle. What would be wrong with just making a rules severly limiting angle of attack, charicteristic length and wing hights? As well as giving back full slicks (and maybe ground effects) so that the downforce becomes less important.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by browney

I would have thought that this would be impossible to police, short of having costant wind tunnel testing. What air speed would the dowforce be policed at? Surley this is impracticle. What would be wrong with just making a rules severly limiting angle of attack, charicteristic length and wing hights? As well as giving back full slicks (and maybe ground effects) so that the downforce becomes less important.

Slicks yeah,ground effect,bloody dangerous!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

You must have thought the same thing about grooved tyres.

I just thought "No" to that!

[Sodemo]

I say regarding downforce levels, if the FIA just said "you can have X by X dimension rear wing, with only 2 completely flat rear wing elements" it would bring far better racing.
Couple this with a further reduction of the rear diffuser and you're laughing.

Im actually quite hopeful about this downforce reduction vibe, there has been a lot of talk about this recently Brundle mentioned it several times in the British GP coverage, Max has been talking about cutting aero, hopefully something will actually get done, and soon.

[FPV GTHO]

I like the idea personally, it keeps the innovation in the sport, keeps costs relatively low in comparison and hopefully helps overtaking. It certainly seems better than other solutions such as the push to pass regenerative braking, and further modifications to tracks.

[Gt_R]

I'd rather see them just reduce downforce by 50% through restriction of front/back wing size (and restrict the type, if any, add-on wings) and design of diffuser. And make up for that loss in aero grip by mech grip

While push to pass MAY add to the show, it does take away some level of skills in overtaking IMO. I'm sceptical, but no harm if we actually have it tried out by the teams.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Slicks yeah,ground effect,bloody dangerous!

Why would a limited ground effect be bloody dangerous? In the US open-wheel series venturi's are still used.

I don't see downforce as the problem, but the way how the downforce has created.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Why would a limited ground effect be bloody dangerous? In the US open-wheel series venturi's are still used.

I don't see downforce as the problem, but the way how the downforce has created.

So long as they don't wear skirts again, i suppose it should be OK if mechanical grip is increased at the same time.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

So long as they don't wear skirts again, i suppose it should be OK if mechanical grip is increased at the same time.

Indeed. That's the reason I oppose the ban on changing tyres. It makes the tyres harder, hence decreasing the mechanical grip.

But what's the problem with skirts? A sudden loss of downforce, caused by damaged skirts? Wasn't that because of the semi-amateurish approach of the Formula 1 during the 1970's?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

But what's the problem with skirts? A sudden loss of downforce, caused by damaged skirts? Wasn't that because of the semi-amateurish approach of the Formula 1 during the 1970's?

Rather more to do with undulating track surfaces if i remember correctly.

[browney]

Is undulating track surfaces an issue anymore though? The standard required of a track if it is to hold an F1 track is very high, so surface undulation would be minimal. Is it much more risk than wings breaking due to the stress that is placed on them?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by browney

Is undulating track surfaces an issue anymore though? The standard required of a track if it is to hold an F1 track is very high, so surface undulation would be minimal. Is it much more risk than wings breaking due to the stress that is placed on them?

Even new places like Sepang have bumpy corners that are not really conducive to side skirts.One second your on rails,the next your heading straight to the scene of the accident.Banned,and with good reason.Side skirted cars were notoriously unstable,even in a straight line!

[Pingguest]

I had a crazy idea this morning. I thought about re-introducing the "fan car", just a used by the Brabham team in 1978. As far as I know it won't affect the overtaking possibilities. So, it would be a good compromise between downforce, keeping overtaking possible and high technology.

[Armco Bender]

They banned wings in 1969,those sneaky constructors have been finding ways to generate downforce ever since.

Problem with the sliding skirts was they tended to stick up ocassionally on one side,usually resulting in a high speed ride through the catch fencing.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

So, it would be a good compromise between downforce, keeping overtaking possible and high technology.

Although you can't follow too closely to the car ahead in case you get hit by a stone!

High technology? The had it at least 35 years ago! http://www.photoessayist.com/canam/c.../chaparral.htm

Let us have somehing new. In that respect it will be like the original fans - a novel untried idea.

[Schummy]

Please, don't bring back skirts. The car's behaviour was unnatural and prone to dangerous "incidents".

Aero and electronics are the demons, IMO. Let's fight them

[DKGandBH]

I think the only skirts we are likely to see in F1 again, are those worn by DC (or maybe Ralf)

DKGandBH

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Let us have somehing new. In that respect it will be like the original fans - a novel untried idea.

Like two races instead of one,on Saturday a half distance race with grid positions from previous Sunday race.On Sunday a full distance race with grid positions determined from finishing order of Saturday race.

How simple do you want it.

[thejester]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

High technology? The had it at least 35 years ago! http://www.photoessayist.com/canam/c.../chaparral.htm

I love that line " unless some spoil sports get together and ban it " the more things change...

[pole2pole]

I think the best way to police this limit on down force is to provide all the teams with the same aero package. A package designed to promote passing

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by pole2pole

I think the best way to police this limit on down force is to provide all the teams with the same aero package. A package designed to promote passing

It may be difficult however I'm inclined to agree, but get it right the first time. Make sure the specs indeed do promote less turbulence and then let the teams work with what they have and do not allow mods that will affect that air flow. Or is that just dreaming?