Formula One car design - The end of the road?

[Sparky]

I was going to post this in the Technical Forum (and heaven knows it could do with the traffic!) but I wanted to appeal directly to the F1 crowd. (Besides, I don’t think many of you ever ‘travel south’, anyway!! Just kidding! )

With the current state of the rules, (with restrictions on size, track, aerodynamic aids, tyres, weight, engine type and displacement, etc,) do you think that the cars have reached a natural conclusion in their evolution?

I know that the Technical Regs have to be as tight as they are, they are aimed at slowing the cars down, after all. Not only that, we might just see a return to dominance of one team. (Which is conceivably worse than a two-team dominance! )

Is there any possibility for a particular designer to shine, or has the way in which the rules have been carefully written (and rewritten) eliminated any individualism or innovation from the sport?

[Ken]

I feel Sparky that the rules are changed for two reasons. One to help slow the cars down a little. The other and main reason it to allow the top teams to stay on top. The mid pack teams can't afford to make changes as quickly as the top teams, thus Ferrari, McLaren stay on top. With DNF's other teams steal points but if all goes well for the top teams you have 18 cars fighting for 2 spots. In the last 40 some odd races Ferrari and McLaren have won 93% of the points . Bring on Cart.

[Maximum F1]

I think that the designers do have to prove themselves. If we look at the way in which the rules change from year to year..we can see the enormity of the tasks the designers are set during the winter. Clearly the best designers are the ones that can produce a car is fast despite these rules.
Also, another point to note is that the best designers are the ones that create a comparitively brilliant car for their budget.

[Ken]

Yes the top teams do make great F1 cars thus the winning records of the top two teams. With budgets of hundreds of millions spent every year by the top teams they stay on top . Money gets the best people on the best teams the rest are also rans. It is this lack of competativness in the field, or the dominance by two teams that makes F1 bad to watch.

[slicktoast]

Maybe it's time for the FIA to be bold and redesign the Formulas; 1,2(oh! F3000) & 3. I'm not saying I have the answers but as it stands now F1 is a relative parade, F3000 is spec cars "creme de la cram", and those slick little F3 cars are where the F1 drivers are coming from! Cycle fendered F1 to keep Shuey happy and acrobats not? They'll at least hide the stupid groovies if they were still mandated. There has to be enough intelligent rules-makers out there to come up with something that allows enough freedom within a speed/safety/real-racing framework. But they can't be the ones that 'slowed' the cars down for this year!

[Ken]

The answer is NOT slow the cars down but go the other way. It was not the speed of the crash between Ralph and JV that killed or hurt anyone , it was track/ safety design. Right now we have on most tracks little short straights that passing is almost impossible, we have cars that are designed to be hard to draft behind, so a driver has to make a high risk move to get by or tap the driver in front like Rubens did to HHF. I say get rid of the chicanes and make rules that allow more drafting. Passing a car by drafting on a straight is one of the safest places to pass. Having longer straights also takes this Traction Control more out of the picture. I am sure it would make for much better racing.

[Valve Bounce]

By limiting the projected frontal area of both rear and front wings, especially the huge rear wings, slipstreaming (or drafting) will be enhanced enabling overtaking or passing. This will greatly increase the excitement of F1. This message will be repeated ad infinitum every time rules changes are mentioned in future threads.

[Ken]

Valve do you drive?

[Sparky]

Originally posted by Ken
Right now we have on most tracks little short straights that passing is almost impossible, we have cars that are designed to be hard to draft behind, so a driver has to make a high risk move to get by or tap the driver in front like Rubens did to HHF.

Passing a car by drafting on a straight is one of the safest places to pass.

I actually think that overtaking is getting a little easier.
With the front wing raised for this season, the car is less reliant on downforce - not much, but some.
We are all aware that the diffuser and gurney flaps on the wings of todays cars create 'dirty air' for any car caught behind the lead car, so drafting or slipstreaming is very difficult.
With the reliance of downforce reduced, the cars are able to follow the lead car more closely, and are less effected by the 'dirty air', therefore more overtaking opportunities.

This is one rule change that Mr Mosely is to be congratulated for - but not because he thought it would slow the cars down - it won't. Less drag = more speed.

(But that isn't what I was referring to, Valvebounce!

Maximum F1 said it right when he said: "Clearly the best designers are the ones that can produce a car is fast despite these rules."

This is my point - if the rules weren't so tight, would the car development path be more than just uploading different sets of software after every season? Yes, the cars look a little different every year, but quite honestly, there isn't anything that we haven't seen for the past three or four seasons. Noses go up, then down. Slim sidepods, wide ones. Renault went out on a limb with their wide V engine, and look at where they are. Ok, they are saying that '01 was never going to be 'the year', but talk is that the 111 deg V10 won't show promise until the EMV is ready, and that won't be until '03 or '04.

I just feel that with the rules as tight as they are, the cars have reached the conclusion of their natural evolvement.

[Ken]

The question was do you drive , race have been a driver ? I have been away from the BB and have forgoten who are drivers and who are Lazy boy wana bezzz

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry Ken, I have never raced cars, something I have regretted all my younger years. I do drive, a Volvo, and that makes all the Aussis want to throw tomatoes at me now. I used to sail, and raced a dinghy, Enterprise, and a small yacht, a Sonata. I also ski, and for exercise, I roller blade in the park regularly each morning.
I hope you won't hold this against me when I flog my hobby horse about those bloddy huge billboards known as rear wings. I have lost all my smilies, so I can't even put a smile on this post.

[Airhead]

No Valve,

tell me it ain't so! A Volvo! Not a 240 series - please no! A Swedish Taxi, I bet EEROS put you up to this!

[Valve Bounce]

NoAM. Its the V70 AWD. I needed something safe to drive up to the Snowfields. How come I have lost all my smilies when posting??

[Tristan]

Personally, I think the F1 regs have got it about right this time. MAYBE a bit more off the wings and onto the tarmac in the form of dropping a groove or two, but still, it hink sppeds are fine and the racing is reasonable (if not exactly scintilating very often). Personally, I LIKE F1. I LIKE F1 AS IT IS. SO THERE.

It's usually about this point in a post that my argument falls apart, so I'm going to shut up now. Where's DinoIV when you need him??

[Don K]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
NoAM. Its the V70 AWD.

I thought the V70 (and S70) were the modern versions of the 240...

Don K

[SL]

My personal view is that the rules need to be relaxed to allow in various types of engines, chassis and drive trains.

At the moment all the cars are so alike that apart from the paintwork it is hard to tell them apart. Thus they are all much the same in speed and cornering so little overtaking.

Relaxing the rules would give the designers scope to develop new ideas. V8 V10 V12 & maybe V16's wailing & rumbling perhaps with different capacity with weight penalties to suit.

It will never happen but that's life.

SImon

[Sparky]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
How come I have lost all my smilies when posting??

Do you wanna borrow a couple?

:confused:

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks Sparky - I just love that sad looking fellow, and missed him. Now, I do I get them to work on a post here?

[Sparky]

Now that would be telling... wouldn't it?

[Don K]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Thanks Sparky - I just love that sad looking fellow, and missed him. Now, I do I get them to work on a post here?

You can find them here.

In case that link doesn't work, you can try one of these:

• :D
• :confused:
• :cool:
• :eek:
• :o
• :(
• :laugh:
• :mad:
• :rolleyes:
• :rotate:
• :)
• :p
• ;)

Somewhere on this site you can find more smilies, but I'm afraid I 've lost that address...

Don K.

[Airhead]

"My personal view is that the rules need to be relaxed to allow in various types of engines, chassis and drive trains."

Yes thanks Simon - but not relaxed enough that we let Volvo enter the competition with any combination of engine and chasis. I mean the crazy English let them enter a wagon in the BTCC!

Praise the Lord they do not make a V8!

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks Donk. :confused: and There are many in Oz who deride those who drive Volvos - it's the national pastime to do this. . I have never understood this but I have learnt to live with it. I know my car is safer than theirs, and in an accident, most of their cars will break up, either killing or maming them. He who survives the crash will always be better off. Look at it this way, if Lori Muntz had been driving a Volvo, she would have won a medal at the Sydney Olympics.

[Airhead]

Valve,

I ride a motorcycle, Volvos are renound for being the cause of accidents - as for them being safer? They seem to attract on the whole (as a sweeping generalisation) owners who do not show an awareness of the other road users in their vacinity. I do not however, believe you to be at all typical of the above. You wouldn't be here if you were.

With this in mind.

There is still time to repent Valve and make up for your sins. Get up tomorrow and start your life afresh. Have a hearty breakfast of bacon and eggs cookied in dripping, put on a blue T Shirt, some stubbies and get in the Volvo for the last time. Find a Ford dealer who will straight swap on an XR8. Find God once more.......

[Don K]

Originally posted by AMoffat
Volvos are renound for being the cause of accidents - as for them being safer? They seem to attract on the whole (as a sweeping generalisation) owners who do not show an awareness of the other road users in their vacinity.

Here in the Netherlands, that kind of driver usualy drives a BMW.
The average (Dutch) Volvo-driver is calm, we try to avoid risks ourselves, and we have a tendancy to provide safety for the other vehicles too. Volvo-drivers are considered to be a little bit "saai" (dull? boring?).
I always assumed, the same would go for Volvo-drivers abroad...

Don K

[Valve Bounce]

I have my eye on the new Volvo S60 T5 - these cars not only have side air bags, but air curtains for the windows in the case of a crash. It also has TRAX, and a whole lot of other extras. I really don't see the attraction of an XR8. What safety features has this car got that would compare with the S60? I will have lots of fun by pulling off the S60 T5 badges, and just stick on the S40 badge on the rear.

NOW, to come to the real crux of this thread - the powers to be are talking about reducing engine size to 2.5 litres in a V6 engine. The reason that the the regs do not allow free choice of engine is because it will spell the end of all competition in F1. The factory that can afford massive expenditure to produce a really powerful V12 or even a V16 will kill off all competition, and probably most of the other factories will puul out, as will some of the "private" teams who won't be able to put up that sort of money. Some cars will be lapped by the 5th lap and so on.
Eddie Irvine thinks that the new V6 engines will rev up to 20,000 and make a fantastic noise which will please the fans. I think it would also be appropriate to reduce the projected frontal area of the wings and also reduce the width of the tyres and forget about grooves.