IMSA IMSA : 2019

[MaskedRacer]

Did some digging. Found out that last year the Daytona entry list was posted on December 27

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Seems like some interesting teams might be showing up ... but i haven't done much investigating yet.

What do You think?

Screw it. Sebring; Friday; the WEC.

[TF110]

IMSA's initial BOP for Daytona https://files.constantcontact.com/db...147ecc2fe7.pdf Looks like DPi loses a few kg's and gains a little bump in power while lmp2's gains are in weight (10kg) and reduction in engine revs. GTD's also look heavy. In GTE, the M8 is the biggest car but the lightest, sounds confusing but is true.

[canaglia]

lol lmp2 redline drop from 8750rpm to 8200rpm!
should be in the 550-560hp range now.
Not big rumble expected in lmp2 class anyway.

I knew AER was working on an evolution of mazda engine, but pushing up revlimit to 9300rpm while keeping the same pressures values.... too ambitious or maybe too risky.
Acura dpi got a noticeable boost too, last season recall had about 1.6bar boost now almost 1.8 for most of the rpm range.


Bmw lost some weight as happened in WEC; ford gt gained 20kg and lost some boost (remember the car keeps on running in 2016 specs, but I'm sure will find a way to be faster than last year however).

[carbsmith]

LMP2 really holding back those poor, poor mistreated DPis

[Maelochs]

Provisional entry list: https://multimedia.netstorage.imsa.c..._EntryList.pdf

Jim Clark---Sebring might be the only event i can attend this season--my job keeps changing and I can never be sure, but ... I f i could only do one event, wouldn't that be the one anyway?

I am sure the weekend will be physically demanding but less so that the Rolex (a break after ten hours) plus there haven't been P1s at Sebring since, what, 2012 or whatever? Sadly WEC doesn't offer much variety .... the Toyotas, a flaming ByKolles or two, a couple Rebellions, a couple Russian Bank-mobiles.

Even so .... interesting to see the speed differentials between the P1-Ls and the DPis.

[canaglia]

Too many gtd to me; 1/2 of the whole entry list. Considering also that only half of them is full season.
Hope next seasons acurda dpi will be available for customers too, just to avoid to see again 6/11 cadillacs. New regs killed lmp2, so no surprise here.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Provisional entry list: https://multimedia.netstorage.imsa.c..._EntryList.pdf

Jim Clark---Sebring might be the only event i can attend this season--my job keeps changing and I can never be sure, but ... I f i could only do one event, wouldn't that be the one anyway?

I am sure the weekend will be physically demanding but less so that the Rolex (a break after ten hours) plus there haven't been P1s at Sebring since, what, 2012 or whatever? Sadly WEC doesn't offer much variety .... the Toyotas, a flaming ByKolles or two, a couple Rebellions, a couple Russian Bank-mobiles.

Even so .... interesting to see the speed differentials between the P1-Ls and the DPis.

As far I can remember oreca boss revealed that LM spec R13 has more downforce than HD oreca 07; this implies that lmp2 derived lmp1 like R13 and BR1 should have much more downforce that lmp2 derived DPi like cadillac, oak nissan and acura.
Consider also that private lmp1 are about 100kg lighter and not less than 100hp more... I expect a gap not less than 4 seconds. DPi could even have a comparable cornering speed but private lmp1 have much more acceleration to exit corners.

[seanyb505]

Yeah we really seem to be forgetting that dpi is p2 based and that the privateer p1s are intended to challenge the Toyotas. I'm more interested in gte across the two series, and an am driven gte compared to a pro driven gt3.

[NaBUru38]

2 Acuras, 2 Mazdas, 1 Nissan, 6 Cadillacs.

Good quality, small quantity.

I still think that splitting the DPi and LMP2 is a bad idea.

[brentrh]

I initially thought splitting DPI an LMP2 was a good idea but with only 4 entered in LMP2 I now have second thoughts.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

lol lmp2 redline drop from 8750rpm to 8200rpm!
should be in the 550-560hp range now.
Not big rumble expected in lmp2 class anyway.

I knew AER was working on an evolution of mazda engine, but pushing up revlimit to 9300rpm while keeping the same pressures values.... too ambitious or maybe too risky.
Acura dpi got a noticeable boost too, last season recall had about 1.6bar boost now almost 1.8 for most of the rpm range.

The Mazda is the biggest concern for me too. I don't think the Caddy will have an issue getting more power, and the Acura seems to be strong. The Mazda may have trouble, and who knows with the Nissan. It may have the power in reserve, or it may have failures like they did midseason with that engine evolution.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by brentrh

I initially thought splitting DPI an LMP2 was a good idea but with only 4 entered in LMP2 I now have second thoughts.

actually would be only 2 full season, unlikely dragonspeed will race aside daytona and sebring perhaps.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

The Mazda is the biggest concern for me too. I don't think the Caddy will have an issue getting more power, and the Acura seems to be strong. The Mazda may have trouble, and who knows with the Nissan. It may have the power in reserve, or it may have failures like they did midseason with that engine evolution.

If mazda runs with that boost, revving up to 9300rpm, the engine won't last even for formation lap

about nissan, ESM used a 2018evo spec with lighter parts; unfortunately cooling wasn't enough and those 2018 spec engines failed. Once back to heavier 2017 vanilla spec, no more issue.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

If mazda runs with that boost, revving up to 9300rpm, the engine won't last even for formation lap

about nissan, ESM used a 2018evo spec with lighter parts; unfortunately cooling wasn't enough and those 2018 spec engines failed. Once back to heavier 2017 vanilla spec, no more issue.

I couldn't remember the details with a Nissan but yes I do remember the problem being fixed. And it seems like they had ample power when the good parts were working.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by canaglia

actually would be only 2 full season, unlikely dragonspeed will race aside daytona and sebring perhaps.

This might have been the plan (or the hope.) I am sure IMSA would prefer three classes to four, and if teams see that DotsPerInch is feasible and P2 offers no real benefit ....

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

If mazda runs with that boost, revving up to 9300rpm, the engine won't last even for formation lap

about nissan, ESM used a 2018evo spec with lighter parts; unfortunately cooling wasn't enough and those 2018 spec engines failed. Once back to heavier 2017 vanilla spec, no more issue.

Maybe AER has finally got it together? The engines in the lmp1's seem to be doing ok.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe AER has finally got it together? The engines in the lmp1's seem to be doing ok.

The engines are not even vaguely related. The WEC AER motors are 2.6-liter V6s. (https://sportscarracingnews.com/2017...-the-2018-wec/)

As far as I can tell this is a bespoke engine, designed in 2014 to be an LMP1 motor and also capable of being modified to meet F1 requirements. (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/i...tender/658685/) The motor has been updated for the 2018-2019 season and is now called the P60B.

This motor has performed well LMP1-L---but what competition has it really faced?

The Mazda motor (originally called the MZR then the P41, P70, and now the P90, as far as I can tell) started out as half the company's 3.2-liter V8. it was updated in 2010 and 2013.

The 2-liter inline 4 is expected to be capable of the same power output as the 2.4-liter V6---more than the IC engine in an F1 car. So far, it has not managed, in part because the chassis was not designed for it---cooling problems or problems caused y an overstressed, undercooled engine have cost Mazda a lot of finishes through the past several seasons.

Maybe the old BMW 1-4s could hit 1200-1400 bhp for a few laps before grenading, but an endurance motor needs to go something like a hundred hours between rebuilds.

The Mazda AER has also been consistently lower in toque than the competition. even when it is faster overall than the other DPis, it can't defend or pass in corners.

So ... the AER V6 has basically only raced itself, and the I4 has basically always beaten itself. (When it didn't, the crew beat itself.)

I used to be a big Mazda fan .... but I am sorry, i'd say that even with Joest on board, Mazda stands less of a chance than ever of winning in P1.

[canaglia]

mazda engine in its roots is basically the same 10 yeals old engine that was used by dyson racing to power their lola cars starting from 2008 ALMS; and also during those seasons, was far from being bulletproof...
difference is at that age had to push just about 500hp, indeed dyson won 2011 ALMS and had a competitive* 2012-2013 seasons too.

Now with the aim to reach about 580-600hp, are required about 2.5bar for the whole rpm range; the motor is basically tasked to go beyond its own limits race by race... let's consider also the overall multimatic tub low quality and cooling issues, you got a grenade ready to detonate at anytime. Push the engine up to 9300rpm is a suicide and very likely joest will set-up ECU to cut fuel below 9000rpm.

Of course engine is low on torque, guess in the range of 520Nm for most of the rpm range, but don't think is a performance handicap at all... just look at 911 RSR, the old 4L is something low than 500Nm but however makes the car competitive against rivals with 100Nm more (ford and aston) and other rivals with 200Nm more (ferrari and bmw). Sure bop gives a huge help.

* a joke being just 1 lola dyson and 1 arx muscle milk the only full season entries, with muscle milk winning most of 2012 and 2013 races; well at least dyson lola-mazda had just few DNF

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The engines are not even vaguely related. The WEC AER motors are 2.6-liter V6s. (https://sportscarracingnews.com/2017...-the-2018-wec/)

As far as I can tell this is a bespoke engine, designed in 2014 to be an LMP1 motor and also capable of being modified to meet F1 requirements. (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/i...tender/658685/) The motor has been updated for the 2018-2019 season and is now called the P60B.

This motor has performed well LMP1-L---but what competition has it really faced?

The Mazda motor (originally called the MZR then the P41, P70, and now the P90, as far as I can tell) started out as half the company's 3.2-liter V8. it was updated in 2010 and 2013.

The 2-liter inline 4 is expected to be capable of the same power output as the 2.4-liter V6---more than the IC engine in an F1 car. So far, it has not managed, in part because the chassis was not designed for it---cooling problems or problems caused y an overstressed, undercooled engine have cost Mazda a lot of finishes through the past several seasons.

Maybe the old BMW 1-4s could hit 1200-1400 bhp for a few laps before grenading, but an endurance motor needs to go something like a hundred hours between rebuilds.

The Mazda AER has also been consistently lower in toque than the competition. even when it is faster overall than the other DPis, it can't defend or pass in corners.

So ... the AER V6 has basically only raced itself, and the I4 has basically always beaten itself. (When it didn't, the crew beat itself.)

I used to be a big Mazda fan .... but I am sorry, i'd say that even with Joest on board, Mazda stands less of a chance than ever of winning in P1.

Well they are related because AER is the one that is doing both of them. That's why I said maybe AER finally got it together? I'm only speaking about reliability btw, not performance. BOP fixes that, or not really.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

Well they are related because AER is the one that is doing both of them. That's why I said maybe AER finally got it together? I'm only speaking about reliability btw, not performance. BOP fixes that, or not really.

Okay. But AER has been providing good engines for a number of series ... Indy Lights, I think, and F3maybe? i would have to google the stuff and I have been at this danged computer all day and don't care.

Point is, AER has produced a lot of working engines during the whole time it has struggled to get the I4 to do anything except overheat and explode.

At least that is how I remember it now. Maybe later other "facts" will swim to the surface of my roiled consciousness.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Okay. But AER has been providing good engines for a number of series ... Indy Lights, I think, and F3maybe? i would have to google the stuff and I have been at this danged computer all day and don't care.

Point is, AER has produced a lot of working engines during the whole time it has struggled to get the I4 to do anything except overheat and explode.

At least that is how I remember it now. Maybe later other "facts" will swim to the surface of my roiled consciousness.

AER's made numerous decent engines, but they're all made cheaply and prone to failure if pushed past their intended design specs. That in fact may be where the Mazda engine is having it's issues - the needs it must meet keep varying. Case in point, the same engine is used as the basis for the Indy Lights engines and serves the job very well(which, as you noted, is AER-built) - no variation in needed specs = reliable AER-built powerplant.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

AER's made numerous decent engines, but they're all made cheaply and prone to failure if pushed past their intended design specs.

Yes .... what a silly thing to say. "When i hammer nails this hammer is great, but when I hammer screws, it doesn't seem to work."

ANY tool, machine, implement will fail when pushed beyond its design specs. That is pretty much what "design specs" define---the parameters within which it will Not fail.

EVERY motor will fail if pushed past its design specs, straight up, almost like ... it was designed to.

Can you show me some examples of AER motors (besides the I4) which were Poorly Made and failed Within their design specs? Failed when used as intended?

As for "Cheaply Made," IF the motor performs to design specs, then "cheaply made" is a Good thing. Why spend more to do a job---particularly in a zero-sum game like the budgeted funding of a race car. The engine that performs to design specs and costs less leaves more money to be applied to other systems.

Further, I cannot find any documentation saying that the Indy Lights engine (which I see described as the "P07" and the "P63") is in fact the same motor put in the Mazda.

As far as I know the Indy Lights engine is a bespoke engine, designed and produced specifically for that series.

As I recall, the original MRZ was based more on a Mazda design, and has been updated to the point where it had an entirely new and much stronger block.

I seem to recall John Doonan speaking extensively about how a large part of the Mazda motor used stock parts---that is, it was not wholly an AER motor. It was Mazda that kept asking for a motor which would not do the job it was asked to do---the design specs did not match the intended use. AER deliverd what was ordered, Mazda used it wrong.

The Indy Lights I4, designed to produce 450 bhp reliably through one-two-hour races for an eight-race season, did so reliably. The Mazda engine, asked to produce 100-150 bhp more for up to 24 hours straight .... well, we see the record.

I say all this to refute the idea that AER Didn't have its stuff together in the past ---the Indy Lights contract goes back to 2012,I believe, and AER also powered GP3 and the World Series by Nissan with absolutely no reliability issues.

And recently the P1 motors have been performing well in WEC.

Thus it seems to me that as far as building motors goes .. . AER has had it together for quite some time. and it is only that Mazda, constrained to using a 4-cylinder motor with some stock parts to preserve some illusion that the car was in some way related to its road-going models, has been pushing the engine beyond its potential for performance---well beyond its design spec---and not mostly through asking the engine to produce too much power, but by failing to adequately cool the engine and its subsystems, causing more potential failure points.

It's not like the Mazda motor was throwing rods or eating bearings. Turbo failures, other failures, are all causing DNFs and are all be called "power plant failures," when in fact the basic engine seems to be holding up ...

After all, when the team doesn't make errors in the pits the cars have shown the ability to run almost as fast as the competition even for a ten-hour or longer race.

When the drivers or crew mess up, or the car is pushed too hard for too long, yes of course the whole package will fail ... but I cannot point to many DNFs and say, "AER caused that."

I maintain that AER has had ti together all along, and Mazda has not. Raising the rev limit to 9300 this season ... trying to compete with big V8s and turbo V6s .... again sounds to me like Mazda is living in a fantasy world, imagining an engine which doesn't actually exist. If there were more failures in 2019, as the engine which was already overstressed is stressed even more sorely, I would not lay any of that at the feet of AER.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

ANY tool, machine, implement will fail when pushed beyond its design specs. That is pretty much what "design specs" define---the parameters within which it will Not fail.

Exceptionally well made machines can continue to perform well outside their specified parameters. Many of AER's contemporaries do so, which is what creates the image of AER as a company that produces unreliable junk in many peoples' minds.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Exceptionally well made machines can continue to perform well outside their specified parameters. Many of AER's contemporaries do so, which is what creates the image of AER as a company that produces unreliable junk in many peoples' minds.

dude, I have seen you in action on these and other boards and know enough not to bother.

But just this: Can you provide me with Evidence that a lot of people think AER produces junk? You have already provided evidence that they don't ... but you claim other people think they do.

oh, and also ....

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Exceptionally well made machines can continue to perform well outside their specified parameters.

And EVERY machine will eventually fail if pushed far enough past those parameters.

You are arguing nonsense here. I am presenting facts. Guess who wins?

The one who walks away first.

See ya ......