Marshal helmets in monza

[chinook220]

Hi all

Just watching the monza GP and wondered what the helmets are (type and manufacturer), being worn by the marshals and why they have to wear them and we don't.

Regards

Chinook220

[MagnetON]

Apparently they are supplied by the circuit to FIA spec. EP was curious about the same thing during the race.

[chinook220]

Interesting anyone with anymore info it would be great

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by chinook220

why they have to wear them and we don't.

Maybe because 'we' would refuse to wear them?

[Mike E]

Perhaps not unrelated to this unfortunate incident. Hard to believe it was 13 years ago.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns02811.html

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Maybe because 'we' would refuse to wear them?

If a suitable helmet / hard hat was identified as recommended equipment by the MSA (and was reasonably priced) or provided by the circuit then I'd have no problem wearing one assuming it didn't interfere with duties.

[m1fcf]

At the risk of going all Finbar Saunders on you all, they were nicely polished helmets...

but actually, I guess it is down to past experiences causing an update to an events H&S policy and Risk Assessment (and no I dont wany to go into long discussions about the whys and wherefores of that can of worms).

if the British GP were to turn up next year and say 'Helmets for all' I suspect quite a few of us would still go, as long as said Helmets were provided, and we dont have to pay for them ourselves. (and wot MagnetOn just said)!!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

If a suitable helmet / hard hat was identified as recommended equipment by the MSA (and was reasonably priced) or provided by the circuit then I'd have no problem wearing one assuming it didn't interfere with duties.

My concern about helmets has always (in my relatively short time as a marshal) been that; as a marshal (or anyone else at a motor race), by far the best defence against injury is to look and listen for approaching hazards. My expectation would be that a helmet would:-

1) restrict peripheral vision
2) restrict hearing
3) (slightly) affect the rate at which you can turn your head in response to perceived hazards.
4) cause fatigue which would make you less inclined to turn your head as much, especially towards the end of a day.

(3 & 4 particularly may be total nonsense)

Now, it's true that being hit on the head can have very serious consequences, but I would expect that this is much rarer than occurrences of incidents avoided, simply by knowing what's coming and getting out of the way.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Paolo Ghislimberti was struck in the chest, not the head, so a helmet would not have helped, and what happened to Henry Surtees shows us that a helmet is no protection against being struck by a wheel at 100mph.

In short, somebody would have to demonstrate to a skeptical Guinness2702 that a helmet makes you more safe, not less so, before I'd be willing to wear one. Monaco may be a special case, as everybody is so close to the cars as to have very little time to react, but I'd think hard about it all the same.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

My concern about helmets has always (in my relatively short time as a marshal) been that; as a marshal (or anyone else at a motor race), by far the best defence against injury is to look and listen for approaching hazards.

Indeed, and while it may be the best defence it shouldn't be the only defence. We already wear flame retardant overalls and anyone with half a brain will wear some form of eye protection around gravel traps, so why not protect your head against such things.

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

1) restrict peripheral vision
2) restrict hearing
3) (slightly) affect the rate at which you can turn your head in response to perceived hazards.
4) cause fatigue which would make you less inclined to turn your head as much, especially towards the end of a day.

(3 & 4 particularly may be total nonsense)

Totally depends on the helmet.

Take something like a bike helmet, a rock climbing helmet, or a Gallet F2:

I don't think these are restricting peripheral vision or hearing:

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

In short, somebody would have to demonstrate to a skeptical Guinness2702 that a helmet makes you more safe, not less so, before I'd be willing to wear one.

Need someone to demonstrate how fire retardant overalls make you more safe before you're willing to wear them?

[SouthportFC Fan]

Two points.

The Italian marshal killed at Monza was stood in a place that he was not supposed to be, and given the speed of the debris coming off Frentzen's car, I doubt a relatively light helmet would have helped.

The Italians are not the only ones to wear helmets as standard. The marshals at Suzuka have worn them for years.

[Steven Humphrey]

The helmets we wear in the ambo service are a bit like the orange one the firefighter's wearing but with a clear visor that slides down. There's no restriction in hearing and minimal restrictions in vision, They do seem relatively heavy but you soon get used to wearing them. I've noticed Spanish marshals wear them aswell, though will often just wear a t-shirt instead of probans!!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Indeed, and while it may be the best defence it shouldn't be the only defence.

No, absolutely. My point was that I think they would make you *less* safe than not having them at all.

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Take something like a bike helmet, a rock climbing helmet, or a Gallet F2:

Looks like it might be reasonable ... not, I thought, what they wear at Monaco though?

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Need someone to demonstrate how fire retardant overalls make you more safe before you're willing to wear them?

nope, but I can't for the life of me think of a way in which they might hamper my safety ...


.... unless they were made almost completely black

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Looks like it might be reasonable ... not, I thought what they wear at Monaco though?

From memory, at Monaco it's Gallet F1E helmets, which is the prefered European fire fighter helmet. (I've also been led to believe that most of the Monaco marshals are "off-duty" French firemen, so may be their own happy hats anyway)

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

From memory, at Monaco it's Gallet F1E helmets, which is the prefered European fire fighter helmet. (I've also been led to believe that most of the Monaco marshals are "off-duty" French firemen, so may be their own happy hats anyway)

I could live with a Gallet F1E. As for cycle helmets, I refer the honourable gentleman to my signature file below.

[Steven Humphrey]

These are the ones the ambulance service issues (without the torch!)-

http://boundtree.co.uk/clothing-and-...et-white-green

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I could live with a Gallet F1E.

If I remember I'll bring mine over to Anglesey and you can have a go!

(Only problem is that mine is yellow!)

[nate93]

In my relatively short time on the bank I can't say I've ever felt the need to wear a helmet, I can understand the want of eye protection and ear defenders but not really a full helmet.

In todays terms 90% of marshals posts are far enough away from the track to see/hear what is coming and react accordingly - as has been said previously staying alert is probably the best defence.

From a rescue point of view I can understand why we do wear them (and I wouldn't want to go without mine), if your cutting/extricating it's definitely worth having one on, as you do at times bang your head, have sharp edges or broken glass.

I think the major issue if they were to be used would be cost - a fire/ambulance helmet is likely to cost at least £150 new, although they can be picked up secondhand - things like MSA Gallets, Rosenbauer Heros etc all cost the best part of £300 and more if you want things like the chin cup or torch (£85 on the Rosenbauer heros).

I can't see it being something that people would ever want to buy themselves, but if they were to be made compulsory and provided I don't see why people should have an issue with them.

Just my two penneth!

[Steven Humphrey]

I agree - I can't see the need for track marshals to wear them. Pit marshals though? They're much more likely to get hit by something-just look at that photographer hit by the wheel recently.

[skeee]

Wholeheartedly agree!
Perhaps times when rescue require them but not needed on the bank.

I always wear safety specs though as often get dust or gravel in my face.

[Woolley]

I just have this nagging feeling that the Italians wear them because they make them look cool and macho.

Whereas if we wore the same thing we'd look like a nonce. In some things, there's no substitute for being Italian.

[Steve Tarrant]

Originally Posted by Steven Humphrey

I agree - I can't see the need for track marshals to wear them. Pit marshals though? They're much more likely to get hit by something-just look at that photographer hit by the wheel recently.

Pitlane marshals for WEC events already have been wearing helmets for the past 2 seasons at Silverstone!

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Steve Tarrant

Pitlane marshals for WEC events already have been wearing helmets for the past 2 seasons at Silverstone!

Only if we stood between the 1 m line and the pitwall, if we stood next to the garages or on the wall we didn't have to. The helmets provided were just builders helmets, therefore not very useful as there was no protection for the back of the head where it was most important

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by mattt

Only if we stood between the 1 m line and the pitwall, if we stood next to the garages or on the wall we didn't have to. The helmets provided were just builders helmets, therefore not very useful as there was no protection for the back of the head where it was most important

My experience of builders helmets is they tend to leave their perch if you need to run or move quickly as they are not secured.

[Terrible-Tones]

It is clear that the helmets provided for the WEC were wholly inadequate for the task at hand. They were indeed builders helmets providing brilliant protection if something was dropped on your head from height (!), but none at all if you were hit, fell over, or had to run anywhere! In fact this year they didn't even appear until after the race!

I do agree, having seen the accident that preempted this move on the continent, (basically a car came in but its engine stopped, so it was rolling - fast - and a photographer didn't hear it come up behind him, he was hit hard and went over the car and hit his head on the concrete), that it might be an idea, but the helmets have to be fit for purpose. You also need to be able to wear a radio headset with them.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I just have this nagging feeling that the Italians wear them because they make them look cool and macho.

Whereas if we wore the same thing we'd look like a nonce. In some things, there's no substitute for being Italian.

This. So, so true.

(Apologies to the small number of people who already wear a helmet when on the bank)