[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 16 of 22

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

But in that example the leader has already had to get past the lapped cars. Racing drivers have a great capacity for feeling "screwed" when things don't go there way. That doesn't mean it's actually so.

Oh, I agree. This is about driver, team and fan "feelings" not an objective analysis of "fairness". My point is no matter how the rules are structured, someone is going to "feel" they were "unfairly" on the losing side of the experience.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

But in that example the leader has already had to get past the lapped cars. Racing drivers have a great capacity for feeling "screwed" when things don't go there way. That doesn't mean it's actually so.

People do. Not just racing drivers.

Which always amuses me when we see posts about drivers complaining about the state of tyres in the heat of the race and how his reflects bad on a driver. I can only imagine all these people who are so sanguine when a problem hits them. Never ever thinking something that happens is unfair to them and also confident that they are so self aware that they know they are completely rational at all times.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Oh, I agree. This is about driver, team and fan "feelings" not an objective analysis of "fairness". My point is no matter how the rules are structured, someone is going to "feel" they were "unfairly" on the losing side of the experience.

Richard

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t been hard done by he rules or application there of.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t been hard done by he rules or application there of.

Agree again. Sometimes the rules are not not fair or are applied unfairly.

Richard

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I used to advocate that too, but there is one flaw that is probably the killer. If there was a car just in front of the leader (about to be lapped) when the red flag came out, he is going to have to wait a full lap after the leader before restarting. You then have the situation of one car just moving off from a standing start while another is screaming through at full race speed. That would be a recipe for disaster.

I was just thinking of a red flag which entailed cars restarting from the pitlane exit, at the appropriate intervals. A car about to be lapped (say, a second in front) of a leader, would be released just in front of it.

[S griffin]

I don't agree with putting the red flag out. Maybe we overeacted a bit to the race finishing under the SC. After all I'd prefer what happened at Monza than what happened at Abu Dhabi.

[Born Racer]

The VSC is the fairest system when people can go onto the track. If it's too dangerous for them to do so, or the car is in an unrrecoverable part of the track without a vehicle, for me, a red flag followed by drivers resuming at the correct intervals is the only fair equivalent. At least it isn't a standing start. I don't really see the flaws.

People should be able to cope with a brief lull in proceedings, but perhaps it's considered that TV broadcasters don't want that.

[S griffin]

VSC has been a great solution, means we don't have too many interruptions by the full SC

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

The VSC is the fairest system when people can go onto the track. If it's too dangerous for them to do so, or the car is in an unrrecoverable part of the track without a vehicle, for me, a red flag followed by drivers resuming at the correct intervals is the only fair equivalent. At least it isn't a standing start. I don't really see the flaws.

People should be able to cope with a brief lull in proceedings, but perhaps it's considered that TV broadcasters don't want that.

I would think the issue is that the track length and the intervals between cars (particularly at the later stages of a race) means that by the time the first cars released have completed their first lap back under racing conditions, they would still be releasing the back of the field cars onto the track at the same time as the previously released cars go by.

While this may have the appearance of putting the cars out there back in the same order as right before the flag, surely the outcome is now vastly different as some cars will be at full race speed on hot tires with the back markers now being filtered back in on cold tires.

That seems potentially even more dangerous no?

And in late stages of the race you might not even have enough laps and time to release all the cars…so if the back markers don’t or can’t even go back out, then why bother releasing any back marker back in anyone’s way to begin with?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

People should be able to cope with a brief lull in proceedings, but perhaps it's considered that TV broadcasters don't want that.

I agree there, those of us at home should be able to deal with a delay. As always start the record and watch it at one’s own leisure later. That works for us at home.

Would be more concerned for those who have spent often several hundred dollars (at least) and their time just to attend and who I would imagine have fixed travel plans and times of return home.

For me, priority should be given for their concerns and it would be better imo to send them home having seen a race run until the end under both green and entertaining conditions.

Races that come down to the last few laps are a rare enough thing but when the possibility arises I do genuinely think race control has an obligation to (and yes even amend the rules on the fly) to facilitate this outcome.

This may not sound like a sporting argument but if we are being honest, by this stage of a race at least 14 cars are not even close to contention. In a way it’s as if we are worrying more about handing out points and position for participation and calling it competition?

I suppose this would be an easier argument to make if points were still only awarded to the top 6.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I was just thinking of a red flag which entailed cars restarting from the pitlane exit, at the appropriate intervals. A car about to be lapped (say, a second in front) of a leader, would be released just in front of it.

Fair point. I withdraw my objection.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I would think the issue is that the track length and the intervals between cars (particularly at the later stages of a race) means that by the time the first cars released have completed their first lap back under racing conditions, they would still be releasing the back of the field cars onto the track at the same time as the previously released cars go by.

While this may have the appearance of putting the cars out there back in the same order as right before the flag, surely the outcome is now vastly different as some cars will be at full race speed on hot tires with the back markers now being filtered back in on cold tires.

That seems potentially even more dangerous no?

And in late stages of the race you might not even have enough laps and time to release all the cars…so if the back markers don’t or can’t even go back out, then why bother releasing any back marker back in anyone’s way to begin with?

Good points. You could add extra fuel in the cars to allow for such scenarios and not count the outlap after the red flag as a racing lap.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I agree there, those of us at home should be able to deal with a delay. As always start the record and watch it at one’s own leisure later. That works for us at home.

Would be more concerned for those who have spent often several hundred dollars (at least) and their time just to attend and who I would imagine have fixed travel plans and times of return home.

For me, priority should be given for their concerns and it would be better imo to send them home having seen a race run until the end under both green and entertaining conditions.

Races that come down to the last few laps are a rare enough thing but when the possibility arises I do genuinely think race control has an obligation to (and yes even amend the rules on the fly) to facilitate this outcome.

This may not sound like a sporting argument but if we are being honest, by this stage of a race at least 14 cars are not even close to contention. In a way it’s as if we are worrying more about handing out points and position for participation and calling it competition?

I suppose this would be an easier argument to make if points were still only awarded to the top 6.

I respectfully disagree about the thing about the cars being in contention. A Grand Prix should not just be seen as a means to an end, i.e. a result, but as an event in which people earn big and small margins of time difference between them and their competitors. Having that eradicated arbitrarily is sad.

On a different note, though, Monza didn't deliver in terms of racing action in some respects. It's very stop-start and passed into tight chicanes don't set the pulse racing like some tracks do with wheel-to-wheel action through a corner.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

You could add extra fuel in the cars to allow for such scenarios and not count the outlap after the red flag as a racing lap.

For sure my suggestion that most teams are not out there to win so putting them at the back seems extreme but surely adding an extra lap is equally outside the wheel house no?

I don’t think there is any right or fair answer here and what you say about Monza illustrates that some things just won’t work at some places and because I default to seeing entertainment prioritized, if not counting the outlap as a racing lap does that then I’m all for seeing it tried out.

I would have to think FOM have run simulations trying out a whole whack of late race options. What have they learned I wonder?

Could you imagine if it’s the way they do things is already the best way?

[Born Racer]

I would be amazed if it was.

Still, I should thank my lucky stars we have the VSC at least, as it doesn't erode a drivers' margin. Safety cars wouldn't be do bad if they didn't allow pit stops during them. What do you think?

No more freebies.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I would be amazed if it was.

Still, I should thank my lucky stars we have the VSC at least, as it doesn't erode a drivers' margin. Safety cars wouldn't be do bad if they didn't allow pit stops during them. What do you think?

No more freebies.

What if the driver has a puncture

[Aysedasi]

Then he comes in and is held until the safety car train passes the pits....

[Born Racer]

Yes, problem solved. Means and ways.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Safety cars wouldn't be do bad if they didn't allow pit stops during them. What do you think?

No more freebies.

the underlying issue here is that so few situations are the same so it becomes possible to suggest scenarios where one idea could work and/or weave rare scenarios where that good idea would not work...and then factor in different tracks different points in the race different weather etc etc.

so for me adaptability of what procedure to use based on the situation and experience of the race director is really the only option...unfortunately the sport is still dealing with a huge hole left by the passing of Whiting and his replacements have yet to build up a body of work that would make it easier to understand why they are choosing to do what they do.

i will say though that over the past few seasons, one of the more exciting elements of race restarts has been the level of aggressiveness Max is capable of applying. while his wheel to wheel tactics may not be enjoyed by all, his driving style (and the strategies his team backs him with) have led to epic races imo.

so i would argue that at the sharp end the erasing of a lead because of a SC is not necessarily a freebie but rather another level to the competition and one that also happens to be hugely entertaining for me.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

...but surely adding an extra lap is equally outside the wheel house no?

upon further reflection on this point though i would like to walk it back a bit...adding a lap back is actually a pretty common during a SC as those who have been lapped are basically granted a freebie lap back.

while i might dismiss the relevance of the back markers during a late race SC period, i do need to respect that they themselves are involved in their own important midfield battles and arguably the gaps those cars have earned over the course of the race are harder earned by virtue of those teams running with lower budgets/resources.

thus i do have to acknowledge the inherent fairness of the VSC.

that said, i do still struggle with the notion/possibility of races ending with everyone holding station.