Back "Problem"... Am I A Reject?

[Drummer]

Hello folks! I hope I find you all well today.

I have started this topic to try and get as many opinions and different viewpoints as possible on this, as I've noticed many different opinions on this already. Seems like something to be debated on.

Ok, so, I tried the bank out, after being in the pits for a few days. Now, I have stated before that I have had a spinal problem, since I was about eight years old. I say "problem" but it's only a problem at times, and doesn't cause me enough pain to render me useless at a time when I really need to be useful. The condition I suffer from is a mild form of scoliosis.

As I've already stated, this, in it's worst case, doesn't cause me to be physically unable to move quickly, or to be of use, if I'm needed to be. I told the marshal who was in charge of me exactly the same thing, yet he still deemed it necessary to make it quite clear that I would be a danger to myself and other people, if I were to go onto the track at any point.

Basically, I like to sit down, when I can (between races), to relieve the pressure on my spine. This saves it aching, as it tends to do, when I'm on my feet, or in the same position for more than about an hour. Kind of, pain limitation, if you like. I've been like this for as long as I care to remember, really, and I'm used to it. I can deal with it. The marshal in question approached me and asked if I was going to be alright to continue, to which I told him I would. He then proceeded to tell me that he thought I looked like I was in pain, and that he didn't want it getting worse. I told him that it would all be fine, as long as I took care of myself and didn't do anything silly. He questioned that, and said that he didn't want me to have problems and be stuck out on the track. So, I told him that, if it did start to get any worse, that I'd tell him straight away, and that I'd never be stupid enough to put myself in a dangerous situation. That, if I didn't think I was capable of something, I wouldn't do it.
He then proceeded to try and tell me what my body would do, and pass judgement on my condition. He said that these things don't get worse gradually, they just happen "like that" snapping his fingers, "and the next thing you know, you're stuck out there, unable to move!" To this, I tried to explain that, in around eighteen years, that has never happened. I told him that it was just a stiff back, and that I've had exactly the same thing for most of my life. I'm used to it, I know my limitations and I'm sensible enough not to exceed them. If I absolutely HAD to exceed them, and push myself right to my very limits, the absolute worst that could happen would be that I'd be going home early. I'm no more susceptible to injury than anyone else. Sure, I could slip a disc, but only just as easily as anyone else there. Baring in mind I was the youngest, I'd have thought I was a little less likely, than any of the other guys, to do that!

Well, basically, I couldn't explain it to him. I needn't have bothered trying at all. In fact, he needn't have bothered asking the initial question, whether or not I'd be ok to carry on, as he had obviously made his mind up on that anyway.
So, he told me that I was not going to go out on track, no matter what, and that was the end of it.

To put it mildly, I was very upset. I felt like a failure and that I'd been cheated out of my time. At that particular time, I sat in the car and swore I'd never go back to marshalling at all. This passed, however, obviously! But it did upset me, and I did feel useless. I'd been welcomed so warmly in the pit lane, been made to feel like I really was worth teaching and training up to do things, then all this happened, and I felt like the opposite. I felt like I wasn't even worth talking to, like they all thought I talked rubbish!

The questions I ask you all are: Should I bother again? Was this just a one off? Would you have done the same thing? What should I do in the future?

I know that I might need to run like Forrest, at a fraction's notice, and I know that my superiors are responsible for me. The thing is, I CAN do that! There's nothing stopping me! If it's a toss up between being hit by a car, or parts of, or having a slightly stiffer back than normal... Well, can I take a rain check on that, please? I'm not sure I can answer that right now! Seriously? If I thought I was going to be a danger, to myself, or anyone else, I sure as Hell wouldn't go out there! I'm not an idiot, I know my own body, I know what it will do in the event of this, that or the other and I'm not selfish enough to put other people in harm's way either.

I ran up the pit lane, after a car had stopped in the entry. Two other guys were further up, they got there first and, as it happened, didn't need my help. That was only a short while after I'd been told I couldn't do that! I was fine! I mean, jeeze!

Sorry about the rant, and extended length of this post, just needed to get it off my chest. Besides, it looks a lot shorter in the composition window! XD
I won't mention where we were posted, or who the marshal was, out of principle.

Many thanks everyone!

Glen.

[deadsquirrel]

Glenn, I would suggest you send what you've written to the chief marshal of the meeting this happened, and also, if it was at Donington or Silverstone, to the ES Team Management (Penny Norris at Silverstone, Di Hardy at Donington).

I would hope very much this is an isolated incident - please don't think it's the norm.

[mickey29]

I am in a similar situation, I want to help out at race meetings, however I am nt physically capable of running, pushing, pulling and lifting.

I would like to help out on the admin side, however that never seems to be an option.

[Drummer]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Glenn, I would suggest you send what you've written to the chief marshal of the meeting this happened, and also, if it was at Donington or Silverstone, to the ES Team Management (Penny Norris at Silverstone, Di Hardy at Donington).

I would hope very much this is an isolated incident - please don't think it's the norm.

Thankyou for your input, much appreciated. I think I may leave it here, as far as official channels go, though. I just want opinions on what I should do, in a marshalling sense, and how I ought to approach the situation in future, if it arises again.

Mickey, have you asked about the pits and start line? I think the most you'd be asked to do is help push a car. If you let the chief pit know your situation, I'd have thought you'd be ok. They won't ask you to do something you're not comfortable with, and even if they do, just let them know that you're not capable and you ought to be fine.

[Shelagh]

I just suffer from old(ish) age but I, too, like to sit down between races to ease the back, knees, feet, etc and I certainly don't move like the "gazelle" I was 20+ years ago!

I suggest you concentrate on flagging. Gets you out on the bank with no need to go out on the track and, as everyone knows, flaggies always spend the "between times" sitting down! As someone who can't pick up an extinguisher or jump over armco it seems to have worked for me since 1991...... And even today, I would not like to have to deal with an incident - if I did then I would hope that adrenaline would take over! By the way, I have shifted out of the way pdq when required.

I've no idea how the new grading system works (no need now), but if you are not that fussed about it, then I would like to hope that as a trainee, you could flag without having to worry too much about the rest of it.

[Drummer]

Flagging was suggested on the day, but it's the fact that I wasn't even given a chance, when I know I'm fine with doing it. I'm not dismissing the idea, but I'm not really all that interested in flagging right now. Basically, what I hope to do is try everything and see what works for me the best. I know what the pits are like, I'll probably do a few days of flagging too, at some point, but I feel I'm ready to try incident marshalling now. I just can't see why I was stopped from doing this, when there was no real reason for it, other than a lack of trust. That's what it boils down to, in the end. If I was trusted, then my word would have been enough. There was no risk, no crossing fingers and hoping I don't get killed.

Thankyou ever so much for your advice, it's greatly appreciated, but I just feel that it'd be a compromise. I like the action, I want to be involved in all that, while I still can be. I dare say there will come a time that I won't be able to do it, and I want to do it before that time comes.

[Dave Brand]

Don't be put off by one unfortunate incident. If you are faced with such stupidity again, speak to the IO or Post Chief & explain your situation.

Doesn't sound to me as though you are a danger to yourself or anyone else, quite the opposite, in fact. You'd be welcome on my post!

[White flag man]

Drummer, have you tried flagging.
You won't get asked these questions because you won't be out on the track.
You are often, especially at Silverstone, on your own, so your won't have anyone annoying you and, unlike incident marshals, you spend far more time being involved in the racing.
You can also lean against your flag post and sit down in between races, when the incidents marshals are clearing up the mess.

[Piglet]

I think the issue was dealt with badly, but having seen someone very recently on the ground in the middle of a track saying "I can't get up" and knowing that there was a pack of cars heading towards him very soon I can see why someone in charge of you might be concerned. Not all people are honest or aware of their limitations.

Pits is OK for those of slightly less mobility but there is often a need to push cars and often only a very very few marshals around. Pits often don't get much of a break between sessions, as by the time cars get back to going through the pits the next session is very close to starting. Also because of the lack of specialist marshals it is often a joint pits/startline role and this can mean some running and often means little time in between sessions for sitting down.

Try different options and see what suits you
Assembly is also an option.

Whoever said about Admin roles, ask the various clubs that use your local circuit, chat to the chief marshals - roles are rarely advertised but competent people able to carry out admin roles are often snapped up if they put themselves forward.

[BowlingKaz]

As I was there and know what happend, I think the marshall in charge was out of order, assuming he knew more about your condition than you do!

You had a right to be angry and I am glad you weren't put off the whole marshal idea by it.

Good grief, if I am judged OK for the job, not being able to run further than 5 yards or faster than Brian the snail, then you are more than capable!

[Hepatic]

Whoever banned you from going on track is an idiot. I would never assume i knew more about a persons possible limitations than the person themselves. I trust whoever i am on post with to be honest about their experience, physical limitations and anything else that might be important to know to ensure a safe post. If anyone discussed such an issue with me on post all i'd insist on was that should you require a break, let me know and we'd do what we could to accomodate you.

Certainly don't let one pillock put you off marshalling. Incident probably works OK when you get bits to do but not busy or quiet (no guarantees either way). Flagging sounds like it'd suit best and having done pits for several years i can honestly say that took its toll on me more than any other duty, but i still loved it. But don't let any of us sway what you want to do - it's your hobby and you should do what you enjoy most.

[Drummer]

Thankyou for your replies, everyone! Well, it seems that this was an isolated incident, and that I'm not completely useless after all... (I'm not completely anything, there are bits missing!) As I say, flagging is something I might try, but I think I'd rather try incident marshalling first.

I hope mickey can find something to do, it would be a sad show, if not. I'm not 100% on the roles and titles of all the marshals yet, but I'm sure this chap was my post chief. Oh, who's the guy who stands in the hut? It wasn't him, it was the next role down, lol! I'll get the hang of it!

Thankyou again everyone. I think I'll try the bank at the GT's next weekend then!

[EDIT] Why does Kaz have a carrot? O_o

[Justin Moran]

Good for you to ignore this idiot and carry on, as Hepatic said, you would be made welcome and certainly accomodated if necessary on one of our posts (We both regularly attend Oulton Park)

As to why Kaz has a carrot, who knows! Maybe she felt like one was necessary! Made me anyway!

[Hepatic]

A post would normally consist of;
Post Chief
Incident Officer (IO)
Incident Marshals
Flag Marshals

The IO will organise the teams of incident marshals and determine the best course of action should an incident happen. Depending on the level of experience on post, that maybe direct instructions (when to go, what to do etc) or just looking out for those trackside as the incident is dealt with. Some practices differ at some circuits but that is the jist of it, it sounds like it was the IO you had your discussion with.

[Drummer]

It does, I'm sure it was the IO. I'm not so much ignoring him, as being dragged forward by you lot, and that's great, lol! Thankyou so much!

Oh, and Kaz has a carrot because she's a vegetarian, I think. *looks for a way to put a cool veggie carrot on own profile...*

[EDIT] It's a post icon, lol!

[Justin Moran]

Use the Post Reply instead of the quick reply and you can give your posts an emblem if you like!
You are welcome Drummer, its good to see new marshals state there own limitations by way of explanation, we all have them, and many of us carry excess weight and bad backs from years of abuse, so you are not alone and in fact I would say you are in good company!

[fazza]

Originally Posted by C9/89

Use the Post Reply instead of the quick reply and you can give your posts an emblem if you like!
You are welcome Drummer, its good to see new marshals state there own limitations by way of explanation, we all have them, and many of us carry excess weight and bad backs from years of abuse, so you are not alone and in fact I would say you are in good company!

Who you been abusing big boy??

[Justin Moran]

Dont tempt me you hussy!

[Drummer]

Now now, ladies! Handbags at 30 paces! XD

[Justin Moran]

See Fazza, he doesnt even know us yet he knows us! Sorry Drummer, its your thread we'll leave you in peace mate!
Good luck and stay safe dude!

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by mickey29

I am in a similar situation, I want to help out at race meetings, however I am nt physically capable of running, pushing, pulling and lifting.

I would like to help out on the admin side, however that never seems to be an option.

Can you flag? Does this interest you?

Apparently the requirement for doing so many days incident / so many days flag for upgrading can be amended for people who cannot do incident. Or do as other people have suggested and ask directly about other roles (race phones, erm, etc)

PJ

[HairyDJ]

Hi Glen,

Been out this evening so coming to this thread a bit late! PC in the hut you've got sorted; IO is the guy with the headset who runs the incident team, otherwise was it just one of us "normal" types who the IO put together into sub-teams?

Everyone's different and maybe you caught a good guy on a bad day, or perhaps they had a previous problem with someone else who made them ultra cautious about you? I'd rather have someone explain up front that they have a potential problem, than find out mid-crisis, but as you said - you know your limits better than any of us will.

Give the bank another go - Friday will probably be a different post / team to the Sat+Sun allocation, so you should get a couple of fresh looks. While we're at it - some PC / IO folk don't like to have "couples" working together (father+son, hubby+wifey, etc). The explanation being that they tend not to mix with the rest of the team quite so much, plus if one is injured, the other might do something daft. Not all take this view, but be ready to meet it on some posts!

btw I've read the link you gave and can't see anything there about not being allowed to kick stones off the track or push a broom

ps have a chicken drumstick - you won't have to share

[Drummer]

C9/89 It's fine mate, gave me a giggle!

David, I was told that by someone before (was it you? lol!) about having friends on the same post. Well, we've both got heads on our shoulders, I doubt we'd do anything daft. As you said, though, it's all down to the individuals who make the rules at the time. I did honestly think that the guy was going to be a fair and decent chap to work with, so maybe he was having a bad day. Although, he was sharing a bit of banter with the others ok, he seemed fine to me.

Basically, I'll try to do what I want to do, if someone has a problem with it, maybe I'll ask them to radio to the chief marshal right then, to arrange another post for me? I'm not sure if that would work, all I know is I'm sure I'd be fine, and, if I wasn't, I'd tell someone. Nothing's likely to happen, suddenly, that couldn't with anyone else. I'm not a special case, I just need to sit down between races and all that, it's no big deal, I'm sure, so I guess we're all good, lol!

Thanks folks!

Glen.

[PVDA]

I don't have a problem if someone with mobility problems is working so long as the people around him/her are aware of the limitations and the person is not put at risk.

As an example it's not a good idea to put someone who cant move in a hurry in a position where they might need to move in a hurry.

The key is to ensure everyone is aware of your limitations so it avoids people complaining in front of you or worse behind your back.

[Terrible-Tones]

Hi Glen

It is difficult to comment on your individual circumstances or your condition because I don't know you and I was not on post at the time this happened so I am unaware if there were other factors etc or exactly what happened.

With regards to disability in marshalling/incident in general this is my own experience.

I have a disibility - given a catch all title of "Chronic Pain State". Put simply it is a breakdown and dysfunction of the central nervous system/spinal chord which results in a lot of pain 100% of the time and that then leads onto varied joint issues and muscle problems. I find both the the best, and worse, thing about it is the fact that it is essentially "invisible" to an untrained eye. Good because people forget/don't know you have it, bad because people think you are swinging the lead whne the pain shows through (I try not let it mostly)! It sounds like you may have an "invisible" problem too?

I have marshalled incident for five years + with no issues thus far. Fortunately I have full (ish) mobility (for a short fat bloke anyway) and I know my limitations (very important, as it is not worth trying to kid yourself)) - which are basically standing for very long periods, and any repetitive movement. The standing problem I get around by sitting between sessions if I really need to, but I tend only to do this when others are naturally doing the same. If I needed a "special" sit down for 5 mins or so I would ask the IO (and have) - and would not expect a problem with that. However I would tell the rest of the team why - that's only fair! The real issue for me is brooming cement dust - very repetitive on my shoulders, hurts a treat, but I work through it until I can do it no more then simply ask someone else to take over for a few minutes, then go back to it. We all tend to do that anyway as we are a team, so I think I am below the radar on that one! (Until now LOL).

One thing I have real trouble with is flags. I cannot hold one for any length of time, and find them very troublesome and painful to wave. Holding one at the front of a startline is about my limit.

So here is a dilemma. I need flags for upgrade to Exp, but cannot do them. I know them and understand them however, and have spent many hours stood next to a flaggie, whilst doing incident, trying to second guess his flags, especially blues. What I did was ring the MSA, who sent me a "note for teacher" explaining, to any relevant ExPC, my position and the adjustments made to the upgrade system for me personally. Therefore my upgrade route is slightly different to normal. I think this is reflected in the upgrade documentation. Therefore quite rightly there is room for reasonable adjustments to be made.

First and foremost if you have something like the conditions we both have, and marshal (particularly incident) as well, you need to understand what is required of you out on post. This only comes with a little bit of experience, so sometimes taking the role of an "observer" for some bits of th eday is wise to start with. I get the impression you are new to incident? Perhaps in the same way that the IO shouldn't have second guessed your condition, is it worth thinking about whether you were also second guessing the IO on what was required of you out on post? Honestly not meaning to be rude at all, just a discussion point/thought?

After understandign a bit of what is required on post then you need to have a realistic understanding of your own capabilities, as it is not worth kidding yourself about what you can do, as I am sure you have already found. I tried and failed LOL.

The next trick is to mesh those two bits of knowledge together so you can see where you fit in and what you can/cannot do out on post, and can see what reasonable adjustments you need and can be made. Essentially this is what I did.

I do not know of a marshal who would have any issues with this at all. For instance at the Britcar 24h I was on post with two gazelles, (well a graceful gazelle and a ferret tbh). Both were so quick there was no hope of keeping up, but we all understood that and it became a joke point at my expense of course, but we made the team work very well indeed by working to that.

So my experience is that there is no problem with a bit of common sense applied. I think perhaps that perhaps your day started with a simple and unfortunate breakdown of communications?

If you are doing FIA GT in pits (?) I am on Startline - see you there. Why Startline for me you ask? Because I am preparing for that day in the future when perhaps I cannot do incident anymore, so I am giving myself the widest spread of duties.

Apologies for long post everyone