The Homologation Process

[skycafe]

My questions are not brought on about the Maserati in particular, more general questions about the process. I understand it in principal; that a car is accepted to run with a certain level of equipment, i.e., engine size, transmission type, body shape, etc. and etc. But who presents the car for homologation approval? Does that always have to come from the manufacturer, or can an individual present a car also?

Using something like the Nissan 350Z, which I don't even know to be homologated for ACO competion: Can I submit for approval, or does that have to come from Nissan?

(Don't write any headlines! I am not preparing a Nissan! I haven't won the lotto yet )

robert

[paul-collins]

The manufacturer has to confirm certain things like construction methods, production capacities etc. Otherwise they don't have to be involved at all.

If I recall correctly, Prodrive had a hard time getting the necessary paperwork out of Ferrari for the 550...

[TerryC]

Hence they brought out the road legal Ferrari 550 "Le Mans" edition to keep the homologation geeks happy.

[soper]

Nissan 350Z is already homologated to NGT by Nissan

Curiously, so is the Mazda MX5 so theres no reason why you couldnt enter one in say British GT, I dont believe they could reasonably refuse an entry to an Homologated car even if they do not consider it a proper GT car

There are actually very few GT or NGT Homologated cars available to chose from, and the process is far too onerous for small volume manufacturers.

[jhansen]

How many road going versions must be produced for homologation in GT2/N-GT?

I believe the number is 25 for GT1/GT correct?

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

I could be wrong, but I think the number of cars depends on how large the manufactorer is (i.e. how many cars they make a year).

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by soper

There are actually very few GT or NGT Homologated cars available to chose from, and the process is far too onerous for small volume manufacturers.

Unless, I guess, you are someone like Spyker, Morgan or TVR, who have made it a mission to race their wares?

I had totally forgotten about Prodrive and the 550! As I recall, they had to purchase used 550's in marketplace because Ferrari wouldn't sell them one? I guess the Taurus use of the VW V10 Diesel is related, in that they figured VW wouldn't approve and thus wouldn't sell them an engine.

So a privateer would have a challenge having a car homologated unless the manufacturer agreed to supply detailed information, which I am sure would cost an extensive amount of money to compile and also be approved by the legal people, etc. within the corporation?

robert

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

How many road going versions must be produced for homologation in GT2/N-GT?

I believe the number is 25 for GT1/GT correct?

The ACO were once talking about upping the minimuium requirement for carbon chassied GT1 cars to 100 for major manufactuers, such as Maserati, and keeping the 25 limit for smaller manufactuers.

[jhansen]

Maserati is a major manufacturer??? How many cars do they sell compared to GM?

[Vacarella]

I have always thought that the holmogation requirements were a little, shall I say "funny" for instance - The Chevy Vette has no homologation issues dispite the fact that the Pratt and Miller C6R bares no resemblance at all to its road going counterpart. The Saleen S7R on the other hand is very much like the car that you and I can buy from the manufacturer. Because of its construction constraints and exotic pricetag, the S7R is made is far less quantities and costs much more than its Vette street counterpart. It seems that this was a major obsticle in the Saleen being homologated.

The homologation process seems very much cut and paste to suit the needs (or wants) of the ACO. All they seem to care about is if the "street version" of the racer is made in enough quantities.

_______________
For Nino

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Maserati is a major manufacturer??? How many cars do they sell compared to GM?

How many cars do FIAT sell?

Don't Ferrari have the biggest budget in F1, even against the likes of Honda etc.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Vacarella

I have always thought that the holmogation requirements were a little, shall I say "funny" for instance - The Chevy Vette has no homologation issues dispite the fact that the Pratt and Miller C6R bares no resemblance at all to its road going counterpart. The Saleen S7R on the other hand is very much like the car that you and I can buy from the manufacturer. Because of its construction constraints and exotic pricetag, the S7R is made is far less quantities and costs much more than its Vette street counterpart. It seems that this was a major obsticle in the Saleen being homologated.


_______________
For Nino

Thats always been the case.

A WRC car has no resemblence whatsoever to its road going counterpart, yet 25,000 road cars are required.

Maybe the best GT regs are the JGTC GT500 ones. So much freedom is allowed, compared to the basic road car, that even a ten plus year old design like the Honda NSX can be competitive. The only problem then is development costs.

[jhansen]

But that is Ferrari's goal, to race. It has always been that way. Honda could care less about racing. They want the marketing exposure. Most manufacturers are in it for the exposure. Which is why F1 continues to make less sense from a manufacturer view point. Hopefully they see the light soon.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

But that is Ferrari's goal, to race. It has always been that way. Honda could care less about racing. They want the marketing exposure. Most manufacturers are in it for the exposure. Which is why F1 continues to make less sense from a manufacturer view point. Hopefully they see the light soon.

My point was its FIAT money, same as Maserati.

[jhansen]

How much money does Ferrari get from FIAT?

[JAG]

ignore

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

How much money does Ferrari get from FIAT?

Put it this way, they write all the cheques.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by jhansen

How much money does Ferrari get from FIAT?

Thats a fair point as Ferrari is one of the strongest 'brand names' in the world, much of the F1 costs are met by companies paying huge sums of money to have their name associated with Ferrari

[jhansen]

Exactly

Unless of course you have some facts JAG...

Maserarti/Ferrari have nothing to gain by introducing a homologation special. Sportscar racing is not their primary business. Their intent is to sell customer cars.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Exactly

Unless of course you have some facts JAG...

Maserarti/Ferrari have nothing to gain by introducing a homologation special. Sportscar racing is not their primary business. Their intent is to sell customer cars.

So why have most Ferrari F1 cars had prominant FIAT sponsorship for many years.

The Maserati program is a works effort primarily, the 575/360's are customer programs.

The MC12 program is part of Ferraris masterplan to raise the profile of the brand.

[jhansen]

Prominent? I see a small FIAT logo on the nose and a small logo at the side near the rear tires. You still have no facts. Just because you state as so doesn't make it so.

Yes they're trying to elevate the Maserati brand.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Prominent? I see a small FIAT logo on the nose and a small logo at the side near the rear tires. You still have no facts. Just because you state as so doesn't make it so.

Yes they're trying to elevate the Maserati brand.

How else do you think a relatively small company like Ferrari can compete with the likes of Ford and Toyota.

Just as Ford pull the strings at Jaguar and Aston, FIAT do at Ferrari. Of course Ferrari also recieve huge amounts from sponsorship as well.

Ferrari's main program is F1 while Maseratis, now under the leadership of Ferrari, is sportscar racing.

Theres nothing to say that Maserati will not have a long a term future in sportscars, as Ferrari have had in F1. We may see LMPs, GT2's etc. from Maserati in the coming years.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

FIAT don't actually plumb that much money into the F1 programme. According to The Guardian's little F1 booklet they hand over around £8m. Marlboro pays £38m to give you a comparison. FIAT are generally a bit miffed that Ferrari plough nearly all of their road car profits into the racing side.

Maserati has been seperated from Ferrari's books and is now lumped in with Alfa Romeo in an effort to turn the maker around and start making money. Which is where the MC12 comes in, Masterati are trying to boose sales in America and Europe.

Sorry if this a bit off topic.

[skycafe]

OK, I chose the Nissan to keep this less complicated

It is approved for N GT, it was submitted by Nissan I assume? ACO GT2 Spec is a level above N GT, is that a totally new Homologation level, or is that allowences beyond N GT spec?

I believe years ago the lots of the parts had to come from the manufactures parts books--this was case with SCCA. You couldn't use say Brembo brakes on your Toyota unless Toyota gave them a parts number. Porsche, Mazda, Datsun/Nissan all were with this type program while others weren't. Is it freer in that regard now, or is there a parts book for Morgan that lists the equipment used on the car last year at Le Mans?

I am not trying to be dense here, just is turning out that way, and this has been the day for dense.

robert, bound for Sebring in the hopefully less rainy morning.

[alfasud]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Maserati is a major manufacturer??? How many cars do they sell compared to GM?

Originally Posted by JAG

How many cars do FIAT sell?

Don't Ferrari have the biggest budget in F1, even against the likes of Honda etc.

aahhhh..... you mean Maserati is a major manufacturer in the same way that Lotus is?

Off-topic... I've heard that Toyota has a similar budget to Ferrari in F1. I doubt that much of Ferrari's budget comes from Fiat Auto profits (what profits?).