The booing of Vettel & is Vettel a great?

[bella]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Young Mr Vettel is technically first rate, precise and certainly excellent - but his character has yet to be tested against adversity or potent opposition. Which is possibly one reason why he inspires verbal negativity amongst the feeble minded.

people forget that he did a considerable amount of losing and being beaten in his pre-f1 and toro rosso days too.

[leonidas]

Great? I think the jury's out. The problem is that there remains a suspicion that Seb's only really winning because of RB's general superiority over the last few seasons. You could have put Fangio/Clark/Senna in the Ferrari last weekend and the tifosi still wouldn't have seen a win. The real test will be how Seb handles next year. If he can beat Kimi and beat him good then a lot more people will be convinced.

Personally, I think precision is a condition for being great . You never really saw Moss, Clark, Stewart sawing away unnecessarily behind the wheel...

[nicanary]

I misunderstood the title of the thread - I thought Seb had bought a Pogo Stick.

(PS - I don't recall, for example, Alberto Ascari being booed after a race, even when he won virtually every race in one season. Do you think it could possibly be because society has changed ?)

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Vettel isn't a great, Adrian Newey is a great. Until Vettel tests himself against some real opposition or moves teams, he won't get the respect that a multiple champion usually gets. It's the manner in which one wins that's important.

Hmmm
Interesting.

I have been reading a book that defines 'greatness' as an ethical quality demonstrated by an excellence in character that is exhibited in the way a person relates to others while demonstrating a standard of excellence in the way in which they conduct themselves relating to others both in the workplace and in every other aspect of personal life.


In this case being great can be achieved by anyone who is willing to equip themselves with personal skills that exemplify those qualities that make an individual an exceptional human being.

So greatness probably varies according to whatever definition you choose to define it by. vettel may be a great driver by some definitions but not a great man by others definitions. Similarly others may define Schumacher as a great driver but not a great individual but the same person may regard Jim Clark great man and human being...

Anyone who boos someone is probably never going to be 'great' by any definition....

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by leonidas

If he can beat Kimi and beat him good then a lot more people will be convinced.

I don't think so. If people aren't convinced by the performances that lead to a 26 year old achieving 4 world championships back to back, they've ulterior motives. Just expect them to come up with some other spurious reasons.

[MarkG]

With regard to the thread title, the booing, whatever any of us think of it, must be because of people not respecting or liking Vettel. I don't think it's because he wins a lot actually. I don't recall booing of drivers winning in dominant cars, such as Mansell, or Senna, or Prost. Even Schumacher didn't get booed (how do you spell that word?) as far as I know, maybe because, despite all the cynical aspects of him, he did put in the work to turn Ferrari around (thanks in those days, to 24hr testing virtually.... most decent drivers would become pretty awesome with that amount of testing).

For me, and maybe many others, the day I took a different view of Vettel was when, in a moment of petulance in Turkey, he took both cars out, then got cuddled by the team, as if it was Webber's fault! From that moment, I disliked him, and I believe he, at that moment, thought he was the dog's ********.

Yes, he has been mighty in the Red Bull, but so has Webber remember, and there's a gnat's todger difference between them really. That difference though, is fundamentally at the starts. Webber must have lost a bit of mojo now, seeing as he's moving on to some car racing, but even so, he's 3 tenths max slower than Vettel, most times though, just a few hundredths of a second shy.

Webber's performances clearly outline the fact that the Red Bull is the superior car and has been for a few years. Maybe the booing will die away when we can separate Vettel's ability from the ability of the car. With the dominant drivers mentioned above, they had already proved their credentials before dominating.

[Paradise City]

Being a 'great' isn't the most efficient attainment of targets and that's it. The sport isn't - or shouldn't be - just a heartless technocratic operation, it should be a heroic endeavor where dazzling feats are achieved. Newey has achieved, by delivering great cars again and again that usually saunters off into the distance but Vettel will need a new challenge to demonstrate his potential as a driver rather than a good pilot of a great Newey mobile. We know Vettel is good but he isn't a great. He may have that potential but he must demonstrate it to win the kind of respect that is owed to a truly great driver.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by nicanary

I misunderstood the title of the thread - I thought Seb had bought a Pogo Stick.

(PS - I don't recall, for example, Alberto Ascari being booed after a race, even when he won virtually every race in one season. Do you think it could possibly be because society has changed ?)

To a point but I wouldn't idealise it either. Modern audiences have never been more vulgar OK but public audiences have been vulgar since time immemorial. It's the nature of the crowd. I think contests at the highest of levels have always invoked passion particularly on the day and there has always been the divide between villain and hero with the public. It's usually in history and the sports chroniclers where we see a more sober evaluation of sporting achievement.

[david5]

The boy can drive, make no mistake. I don't like him, he has no humility, he has no loyalty.

[bella]

no loyalty?

why do you say that?

[ace007]

Originally Posted by david5

The boy can drive, make no mistake. I don't like him, he has no humility, he has no loyalty.

Maybe the best driver of his generation. Time will tell if he can sustain this rhythm to be compared to the very best. But no charisma and certainly no loyalty to Webber when certain rules have been set up. Not the first time, not the last either. But contrary to a Webber who speaks the truth (as much as is allowed...), you miss to meet the real guy behind the champion. No real warmth. A bit like Schum... which is perhaps a good sign for him. For me, he does represent a new threat to kill the fans' enthusiasm a bit similarly to Schum at Ferrari when all you could see was his red car and his face everywhere...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Being a 'great' isn't the most efficient attainment of targets and that's it. The sport isn't - or shouldn't be - just a heartless technocratic operation, it should be a heroic endeavor where dazzling feats are achieved. Newey has achieved, by delivering great cars again and again that usually saunters off into the distance but Vettel will need a new challenge to demonstrate his potential as a driver rather than a good pilot of a great Newey mobile. We know Vettel is good but he isn't a great. He may have that potential but he must demonstrate it to win the kind of respect that is owed to a truly great driver.

No again. The 'sport' is what it is. Vettel does not need to do any more to prove he is above those who've achieved less.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by davyboy

No again. The 'sport' is what it is. Vettel does not need to do any more to prove he is above those who've achieved less.

And yet - he has not won the respect of a large chunk of his audience, hence this thread.

I think the reason is that we need to add, "...on a level playing field" to your statement.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

No again. The 'sport' is what it is. Vettel does not need to do any more to prove he is above those who've achieved less.

I'm sorry if you want to reduce the sport to a sequence of business operations or an exercise in technical efficiency in your own mind then that is your prerogative; it's not a view that I anyone or anyone else is obliged to limit themselves to.

Vettel isn't a great nor is your attempt to infer "ulterior motives" just because nearly noone excepts your confined idea of what the sport is or what constitutes 'great'.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm sorry if you want to reduce the sport to a sequence of business operations or an exercise in technical efficiency in your own mind then that is your prerogative; it's not a view that I anyone or anyone else is obliged to limit themselves to.

Vettel isn't a great nor is your attempt to infer "ulterior motives" just because nearly noone excepts your confined idea of what the sport is or what constitutes 'great'.

The sport is what it is. Vettel is who he is and his accomplishments are what they are. If you want to warp or distort reality, that's up to you. But please don't expect to convince others to accept that black is white.

[Kempi]

and certainly no loyalty to Webber

Does someone have to be loyal to somebody else who is not loyal in return? It is a moral question, but nevertheless valid.

Fangio gets mentioned alot in comparisons like these. I wonder how people who do mention him would look at him if he was under the same scrutiny as today's driver: When Fangio was winning his 4 WDC on a trot he jumped ship ship every year. Why? Because he wanted to be in the best car. He (or his team) even made his teammate stop a race to take over the car. I would like to see what happens if Webber was made to exit the car and have Vettel run it to the finish line, especially after how Silverstone 2011 was looked at.

This is all old news. Yet it is casually ignored. Maybe that is due to historic rose tinting and it will be the same for MSC and VET in a few decades time. It should be considered in discussions today, nevertheless.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by numbersix

And yet - he has not won the respect of a large chunk of his audience, hence this thread.

I think the reason is that we need to add, "...on a level playing field" to your statement.

There's no evidence to suggest that he hasn't won the respect of a large chunk of his audience. There's a small number of people on here who dislike him or feel he isn't 'a great', but is there anyone [even on here] who has yet to have respect for him or what he has achieved ?

In terms of F1 being a level playing field, it isn't... and never has been. As I said above, the sport is what it is and we have to accept that.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The sport is what it is. Vettel is who he is and his accomplishments are what they are. If you want to warp or distort reality, that's up to you. But please don't expect to convince others to accept that black is white.

The sport is what it is and is - and should not be confined to your limited and claustrophobic technocratic view of the sport as an exercise in achieving targets.

Rocking back and forth, shrieking "no" and getting distressed because others wish to explore the sport in its all elements isn't doing you much credit. We're not judging most efficient employee of the year here, we're judging greatness.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The sport is what it is and is - and should not be confined to your limited and claustrophobic technocratic view of the sport as an exercise in achieving targets.

Enough !

[bella]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The sport is what it is and is - and should not be confined to your limited and claustrophobic technocratic view of the sport as an exercise in achieving targets.

Rocking back and forth, shrieking "no" and getting distressed because others wish to explore the sport in its all elements isn't doing you much credit. We're not judging most efficient employee of the year here, we're judging greatness.

i think you're being a little bit pot calling the kettle black with this post.

davyboy is measuring greatness by achievements, you're measuring it by how he makes you feel. it's akin to the science vs religion debate. you're never going to converge. let's leave the escalation in handbaggery at that, shall we?

[numbersix]

Going back to the original post.

Some Tifosi boo anything that's not red. It's a national pastime but I noticed Alonzo looking very uncomfortable for Vettel and so did I. It's not right.

We in the UK weren't exactly kind to him when he went DNF at Silverstone and there was, at best, little enthusiasm shown to him when he appeared at the show afterwards - which I thought was brave of him.

Do 'some' people not like him because they don't respect his achievements? Or is it something else?

I think there has been a sea change in human behavior brought about by the internet where every blog, chat site, FaceBook page, news pages and YouTube have a 'comments' box where a minority of chimps hiding behind avatars write comments that range from disgraceful to disgusting.

Is this "freedom to be outrageous just because they can" now part of everyday life? I regret to say Yes.

[garcon]

There is one thing for certain. The tifosi won't boo Vettel when he signs for Ferrari. Instead they will recognise a champion and potential great and will cheer each and every victory.

As for maturity, to achieve what Vettel has achieved at his young age displays infinitely more maturity than the brainless morons who boo him. I wonder what if anything the boo boys have achieved in their trivial little lives.

[bella]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I think there has been a sea change in human behavior brought about by the internet where every blog, chat site, FaceBook page, news pages and YouTube have a 'comments' box where a minority of chimps hiding behind avatars write comments that range from disgraceful to disgusting.

Is this "freedom to be outrageous just because they can" now part of everyday life. I regret to say Yes.

i'd have to agree with that.

also, the majority of people (and that minority of chimps) get their information from loads of different sources. back in the day when we all read autosport and newspapers, we all got the same information from the same, trusted, well considered and informed sources. now, we'll listen to anybody with a twitter account. our fangirl and fanboy couch opinions now arrive in the same format and context as a journalist at the circuit. people can be who they want to be, and say what they want to say and generally people will take that at face value, even if they're not being entirely honest themselves.

curse and a blessing, i suppose

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by bella

i think you're being a little bit pot calling the kettle black with this post.

davyboy is measuring greatness by achievements, you're measuring it by how he makes you feel. it's akin to the science vs religion debate. you're never going to converge. let's leave the escalation in handbaggery at that, shall we?

I don't see the hypocrisy I work from one standard only.

I'm not making a dichotomy between achievement and feelings. The sport is driven by passion because in rational terms it is a folly. We invest time, money in order to embrace the sport because we are passionate about it not because we are obliged to take note of technical achievement.

The achievement is there and it is mainly Newey's achievement who is a great engineer. For Vettel to carve out his own 'greatness' he needs to transcend his machinery or tackle and defeat a great opponent on relatively equal terms or some other challenge of that nature. He may do that at some point in the future but he's not great yet.

[Greem]

Re the booing - Sheep Syndrome. Nothing more, nothing less.

Otherwise summarised as "Everyone else is doing it, so I must too".