"4 wheels off" - discussion

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

why should it just be if all four are then its an offence.

I think it's because 2 wheels off would be impossible to define Al. How far off and all that.
I don't understand it either. The track is defined as the tarmac up to the white lines, then the BB says that effectively you can run with your outside wheels on those lines, putting almost the whole car off track resulting in stones gravel and all manner of crap to pepper the glass. Presumably that would be OK on the straights too?

Still, the rules are the rules. All I am asking for is application of them to assist in penalising FWO. At the moment our clerk is prevented from doing so by lack of reporting.

[Hepatic]

isn't the areas that get used repeatedly by most of the drivers (Copse at Silverstone is a pet hate of mine) more due to the way the track is configured rather than the need to punish drivers? i've seen some recent photos of silverstone where it looks like there is a band of grass or other awkward surface between the edge of the track and the tarmac run off (Brookland IIRC). That dissuades the drivers from deliberatly gaining advantage so giving the post chief far less to write about.

[Joyce George]

as for the observers, perhaps we should start recruiting pretty young ladies as PA's so that they can do the reports[/QUOTE]


Does nothing for me!! Can I have a good looking hunk of young male instead???

[Stoowert]

Keke, me old mukkah, you are a tryer,I'll give you that! IMHO one only has to say " In the States...or...in Canada they...and the average senior Brit Marshal switches off! In the past 2 weeks (Including a Training Day) I've suggested a few things wot you Septics and friends from the Frozen North do as norm, nuffin, doing! Not even considered.

Back to thread...I don't write reports for every Off & On, mainly because I seem to be on posts with a beach! I would suggest just going into the kitty litter is punishment enough! Plus Mildred & Julie would have a bit of extra work to do, trying to understand us on Ye Olde Telephone! Radios? A passing fad, it'll never catch on! I prefer carrier pidgeons!

[brickkicker]

Just as a quick point, I was racing at Snett last year and went to the driver briefing in the morning and the man pointed out that you couldnt corner cut etc etc, then a driver asked about sear corner. The answer was 'Oh thats ok there but dont go to far' this just makes a bit of a mokery of it all.
I dont like the current wording as has already been said you can be a full car width off the track (as long as at least one of your wheels is inside or on the white line) and in the case of Al's car your almost in the next village and lets be honest if one driver is doing it the rest need to follow to keep up.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

In SCCA club racing, "4 wheels off" is a little more leniently defined (ie. tarmac good, grass/gravel/other side of curbing bad). We also have a special comm call for shortcuts, which are defined as gaining time or distance on a paved runoff that leads back to the track, such as a straight-through possibility in a chicane. The general opinion is that a true four wheels off will not result in an advantage but a shortcut will. The calls are made as they occur, and shortcuts in a qually or race loses the competitor either that lap or a defined amount of time. But Control still wants to know even if it's practice -- maybe someone's "discovered" a new piece of paving or a new line that should really be coned off, or discussed during drivers' meetings. Or maybe it's an indication that the driver shouldn't be out there playing in traffic.

My experience has been that race control generally keeps track of which cars have done what, and the stewards will request that car be given a furled black after three incidents (offs, spins, whatever) anywhere on the track. It's pretty easy to see by looking at the log since the car numbers run sequentially by incident down the left of the page, and when I've been the logger I've often murmured, "That's three.." on receiving the third call. Stewards seem inordinately interested in those murmurings, I've found!

As long as the calls are kept short and sweet, eg. "Control, 2, car 4-5 drive off and on, right" this should not be too difficult to implement at any track without clogging the radio. After all, we in the Colonies do it now and it works.
Just my 2 cents
keke

keke,
Surely, certainly in qualifying, any driver running wide of a corner is gaining an advantage as they can carry more speed through the corner and get a faster lap time.
As long as we get consistency via race control by all the clubs it shouldn't be a problem, but if reports aren't acted upon then Post Chiefs, quite rightly IMO, think why should they bother.
Regarding Snetterton, the big dip at the end of the concrete at Sear Out is always a joy to watch. They have now put a raised curb round the inside of the second part of The Esses, which seemed to do the trick at the recent 750MC meeting, although we did have several cars lift up on 2 wheels. It is not user friendly, especially to those in open wheeled cars or cars with low spoilers.

[johnw]

Excellent!
Friendly kerbs - work of the Devil

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by White flag man

keke,
Surely, certainly in qualifying, any driver running wide of a corner is gaining an advantage as they can carry more speed through the corner and get a faster lap time.

If you mean '4 wheels off running wide' I would have said, hardly ever, no.
Running wide = more distance to cover; also a loss of traction due to marbles / grass / gravel

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

If you mean '4 wheels off running wide' I would have said, hardly ever, no.
Running wide = more distance to cover; also a loss of traction due to marbles / grass / gravel

I thinking of corners that have tarmac/concrete run offs (Copse, Sear Out etc). Lots more speed V slightly more distance ??!
Obviously anything else, grass/gravel, ain't going to help you.

[numbersix]

How about changing the kerb stones so that the zig-zag effect goes the other way?

[johnw]

Biker unfriendly otherwise I'd agree.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by White flag man

keke,
As long as we get consistency via race control by all the clubs it shouldn't be a problem, but if reports aren't acted upon then Post Chiefs, quite rightly IMO, think why should they bother.

I can see why you'd feel like that, but ultimately the Clerks really do need you to report things. If you don't report by phone/radio AND follow up in writing then the Clerks can do nowt.

I've said on the MSVR thread, I think one of the issues may be that race control need to be more specific for individual events about what they want from marshals on specific posts and locations so that marshals don't feel that they are wasting their times.

IMO it is unrealistic to expect to get consistency, you're talking about different events, with different clubs and different individual clerks and series/championships. You will no more get consistency than you will from individual marshals on post - each individual will view things differently. For some of the international events for instance the visiting Race Directors are not at all interested in 4 wheels off.

I wonder if practically the answer to avoid clogging up phones/radios is for a post to run a seperate "4 wheels off" log which gets handed in to the Course Car at the end of each series, it means that all action is retrospective with no opportunity for a black and white flag, but perhaps that might work?

Last weekend we were lucky to have some series where the co-ordinators (Johnw - TTRS/PBMW, Calypsoelise - Lotus and Chezza - DMN) are keen on cracking down on driving standards and are very keen to see action.

Calypso Elise's face as too many of the Lotus guys overtook under the very obvious yellows at Paddock witht the big yellow manitou in the gravel on the second and third lap past the incident was an absolute picture!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Piglet

For some of the international events for instance the visiting Race Directors are not at all interested in 4 wheels off.

I think in DTM you get penalised for having 4 wheels on.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I think in DTM you get penalised for having 4 wheels on.

You may say that....I couldn't possibly comment

[Al Weyman]

Sink broken glass bottles into the kerbs, that'll stop em!

[haystacks]

Only after i,ve emptyed them

[racerkeke]

Do you mean to tell me the observer on a turn has to write up an incident report for every 4 wheels off they call? Geez, no wonder people don't want to do it. Save the writing for the big stuff! Call it in and let Control keep track of whether the driver's consistently doing it or what. Sheesh!
keke

[JimW]

The obvious answer is to bring back the sleeper walls and a bare yard of slippery grass. (I remember Paddock bend as it used to be.) Or at Thruxton, reinstate the Armco which used to delineate the chicane.

Regards

Jim

[Steven Humphrey]

What about clubs &/or the MSA producing a separate '4 wheels off' report form which the PC's can just note down car numbers (and time/lap number?) on & hand in to the course car after each session? When you have a full grid of 38-40 cars & over half need reporting, I can totally understand PC's not wanting to fill out 20+ report forms in between sessions!

Or failing that, how about repeat offenders having to stand on the spot where they repeatedly ran wide during the next session!!!

[The Fat Clerk]

Or failing that, how about repeat offenders having to stand on the spot where they repeatedly ran wide during the next session!!![/QUOTE]

This one I like

[terence]

Totally agree Dave,it is not allowed,it should be reported!!




Same rule for the SC Driver???

[The Fat Clerk]

Deffo, unless it's me of course!

No need to mention me in the Course Car (Renault something, Megane I think) @ Brands 5 or 6 years ago when I lost it between Posts 9 & 10 and got applauded by F.Vee drivers as I made my way back down the pit-lane, woops.

[Tal Aras]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I


Last weekend we were lucky to have some series where the co-ordinators (Johnw - TTRS/PBMW, Calypsoelise - Lotus and Chezza - DMN) are keen on cracking down on driving standards and are very keen to see action.

Calypso Elise's face as too many of the Lotus guys overtook under the very obvious yellows at Paddock witht the big yellow manitou in the gravel on the second and third lap past the incident was an absolute picture!

Both the Lotus and PBMW websites have details of their Driving Standards Observers, how to rejoin the track and how to behave towards flags/marshals. Well worth a read if you can find them or if someone can put up a link, as it supports much of what is said here. As I mentioned on the Brands thread that started this, HSCC asked for reports on 4 wheels off last year in qualifying and the drivers had definitely got the message by the timne they started the race.

[johnw]

Delighted that you found them

Link is here http://www.pbmwc.co.uk/downloads/pbm...gstandards.pdf

[JimW]

Originally Posted by johnw

Delighted that you found them

Link is here http://www.pbmwc.co.uk/downloads/pbm...gstandards.pdf

What a splendid document. Never mind the detail, look at the intent.

(I think I even recognise a suggestion of mine in there. )

Regards

Jim