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Old 13 Sep 2019, 13:37 (Ref:3927722)   #46
Richard Casto
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The issue of not leaving a car width from the edge of the track to a car alongside you though would appear to be absolutely clear cut, perhaps some painted lines on the track designating a car width from the circuit edge would be in order. You can weave as much as you like, but you must stay on one side or the other of the marked line.
Can someone point to me any documentation as to the exact understanding of this rule? I know there is more to it than just a "cars width". See my concerns below...

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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
I know what you mean but I disagree with the idea of painted lines on the track surface - just one more thing to cause traction loss and in wet conditions simply adds to risk.
While the traction issue is one practical concern, there are others. Where do the lines start, where do they end? Then, that only speaks to "width". How do we measure relative location of one car to the other? Do we need calibrated graduations to be painted on the cars so that we can see just how far one car is up on the other? What about perspective of the camera vs. centerline of the track. The list of complexities going on and on.

IMHO, this is an extremely pedantic approach and very much counter to what most (not all) people want to see. I do realize that for the "rules is rules" folks (which I fit into that group, but mostly on the technical regulations side), my comments might be viewed as heretical and an anathema to all that is "driving standards".

I also don't think the sky is falling with the introduction of black/white flag. That all of a sudden "all is fair and all you might get is a black/white flag".

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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
I think that one of the things many get wrong when discussing consistency (including Mr Palmer in the video) is comparing stewards decisions now with those taken in previous years. There's a new rule book issued each year, fresh briefings and changes made to how the sport is run, even though sometimes those changes are minor. We can see that right now for example with the re-introduction of the "bad sportsmanship" flag being used in Grands Prix.

I also think that the Vettel penalty in Canada this year was something of a watershed and it certainly appears that the approach taken to judging on-track moments has altered since then - no doubt discussed at some length in drivers briefings.
Agree. Its clear that both "how" the stewards work and the desired outcome are different now than before. If this is a true inflection point, then it's really impossible to compare before vs after and expect consistency because by definition... they should be different.

As we had consistency issues before, there is no reason to not think it will happen now as well. And with any change, it may be rocky for awhile. And who knows... after awhile we all (including myself) might decide it was a bad idea. Or we might love it!

Richard

Last edited by Richard Casto; 13 Sep 2019 at 13:46.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 14:25 (Ref:3927738)   #47
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Why not Griff?


Because you’re looking at two different series
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 21:20 (Ref:3927798)   #48
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
If the stewards do not exhibit consistency over at least the duration of the championship they are manipulating the championship.
They may be able to change horses in-between seasons, but changing the rules during the season would seem to be unacceptable from a championship point of view as it affects points allocations.
Whilst in an ideal world you'd be right, when it comes to driving standards, various decisions / approaches / restrictions are discussed at driver briefings and changes are made on a rolling basis.

If for example, the driver group has an issue with a driver changing lines in the braking zone and not being penalised and the much greater risk overall if all of them start doing it, restrictions and allowances are changed to prevent a problem.

Or if the consensus in the briefing room and through the sport is that a particular incident was not handled well and is over-regulation then the FIA might agree to loosen the shackles somewhat for future races.

In most cases, the changes are relatively subtle and shouldn't wait for an entire season to be run to be rectified, sometimes from a sporting point of view, sometimes from a risk management point of view.

If a decision is a "bad" one, it makes no sense to keep making the same bad decision in the same circumstances purely for the sake of consistency.
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 04:53 (Ref:3927840)   #49
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Can someone point to me any documentation as to the exact understanding of this rule? I know there is more to it than just a "cars width". See my concerns below...

Richard
I think this is what you are looking for Richard?

copied and posted relevant piece of Appendix L relating to river conduct as it is relevant to this thread.

Appendix L International Sporting Code
International Drivers’ Licences, medical examinations, drivers’ equipment and conduct – 2019
Chapter IV Section 2 pages 39 and 40
2. Overtaking, car control and track limits

a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said track, however, as soon as it is caught by a car which is about to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first possible opportunity.
If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to overtake. Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported to the Stewards.

b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason. More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position offline, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

d) Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time.
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 04:57 (Ref:3927842)   #50
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Because you’re looking at two different series
This is not really a valid explanation of anything.
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 05:07 (Ref:3927843)   #51
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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
Whilst in an ideal world you'd be right, when it comes to driving standards, various decisions / approaches / restrictions are discussed at driver briefings and changes are made on a rolling basis.

If for example, the driver group has an issue with a driver changing lines in the braking zone and not being penalised and the much greater risk overall if all of them start doing it, restrictions and allowances are changed to prevent a problem.

Or if the consensus in the briefing room and through the sport is that a particular incident was not handled well and is over-regulation then the FIA might agree to loosen the shackles somewhat for future races.

In most cases, the changes are relatively subtle and shouldn't wait for an entire season to be run to be rectified, sometimes from a sporting point of view, sometimes from a risk management point of view.

If a decision is a "bad" one, it makes no sense to keep making the same bad decision in the same circumstances purely for the sake of consistency.
Good points.

They really need permanent stewards, a record of decisions and agreed changes to ensure a transparent process.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Vettel would not have been granted a free pass if he exhibited the behavior Charles did at Monza.

The decision not to penalize Vettel in qualifying was pretty awkward given
Appendix L 2.c) above!
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 08:27 (Ref:3927862)   #52
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Of course it must have been harder for the stewards to punish a Ferrari driver leading at Monza. It wasn't such a problem to punish Vettel since he was already out of the points
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Old 14 Sep 2019, 13:36 (Ref:3927907)   #53
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I think this is what you are looking for Richard?
Yes, thanks wnut.

I expected it to be relatively compact and concise, but it's very brief. I expected some text that addressed relative car positions front to rear.

To my point earlier about where to start and stop painted lines, I think things like where the "corner" and " approach to the corner" are located are very fuzzy and clearly would be different by series (car capabilities) and even conditions within a series (dry vs wet given changes in braking distances for example may lengthen the definition of corner or approach to the corner.)

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