Front-Wheel Drive Cars...

[terence]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Isn't it called the fortwo because it is for two? It seems you mean the normal smart. For interest they come with a proper tin roof and the one with the retractable roof around the world.

There was a little roadster too (and even a coupe roadster -odd name). These were a hoot. Kind of a modern MG midget. It could be well balanced. Although there was a fun characteristic from the gear change. Pushing on it would tend to have a whisker of understeer., but when it changed up the weight shifted to the front wheels and whoa! Far from ideal, but it didn't diminish the fun.

These are worth quite a bit now as they were discontinued and a little following had developed.

It isn't my idea of a natural sportscar - a silly little thing surely - but for me it demonstrates how with cars it is silly to just compartmentalise. I know these generalisations can make trying to understand a complex subject simple, but it is the crossovers, the things that deviate from the norm that are interesting to discuss. Unless you want to just dismiss others opinion. If your going to do that, why start a discussion in the first place?


Talking of generalisations

But of all the nationalities who come along,it IS true. Sorry.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by terence bower

But of all the nationalities who come along,it IS true. Sorry.

I thought they could only drive auto's !

[Zico]

I guess it depends what fwd cars you have driven, I agree most are very dull but there are a few exceptions, mostly French hot hatches.

I've owned 3 Peugeot 106 GTI's over the years. Yep, it's only a cheap hot hatch but even coming up to my forties now I'd buy another in a shot if I found a mint, low millage, unmolested, unmodded example. It can mess with cars way, way above it's price range. The handling is exceptional, so much more fun than you'd believe possible in a fwd car. Lightweight, exceptional balance and turn in and with a very playful progressive rear end which you could hang out and control on the throttle to some degree when you wanted to play.

Back in 98 when they were first released, tested by Richard Burns and Tim Harvey it finished 2nd overall in the Top Gear handling test up against all the top performance cars of the time, lotus Elise etc.. and was beaten only by the Ferrari 575 Maranello... high praise indeed!

I really miss it... so much.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I thought they could only drive auto's !

Funnily enough-that is true. Even had one tell me "Yeah,stick shift is no problem". Yeah right,driving lessons on how to use the clutch before we could drive away!

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Definitely not the technique to use,if it washing out/understeering pushing on,A] You got it wrong to start with.B] Drop a gear,or two,and floor it,it will STILL pull round.


We tend to get rather a lot of Americans come to sample the delights of driving in a particular spot in Germany,so was aware of Renault not being available.Am also aware of [sorry to say this] rather poor driving abilities displayed by most Americans. NOT a dig simply stating a fact.

And I'm used to incorrect and broad generalizations. Nothing new...

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I thought they could only drive auto's !

Funny, I've only driven manual trans cars and motorcycles(dirtbikes) since I was 5.

Since no one can refute any of the facts I've posted with sources, I guess the typical "let's change the subject to 'stupid americans hu hu hu'."

Doesn't change the fact that FWD is still a worse platform for performance than AWD/RWD.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Dragger

And I'm used to incorrect and broad generalizations. Nothing new...

Perhaps its time to get used to FWD,when you are,then come back and tell the people of your findings.Sounds like you have very limited experience of fwd,you should know that the power gets put down a lot earlier than rwd,its called traction-being aided by the weight covering the driven wheels-therefore pulling you out of the corner as opposed to pushing.

[garcon]

The people you are arguing with have plenty of real life experience to draw from. They don't need internet "sources".

And most of them would probably choose RWD if asked. They were arguing with your assertion that all fwd cars are rubbish. Which, to be fair, if you have only driven American fwd cars is a reasonable, if incorrect, assumption.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Funny, I've only driven manual trans cars and motorcycles(dirtbikes) since I was 5.

Ditto so have I , and had a pretty good go in the competition world on 2 and 4 wheels with over 300 wins in 50 years !

Yes Terry and I prefer RWD as that's what we were brought up on in our formative years, however front drivers are here to stay whether we like it or not.
Modern FWD cars have got better and better over the years since the Mini appeared in 1959 that changed the way that cars handled and performed.

Ultimately a RWD will initially out perform a FWD off the mark and a 4x4 will out perform both, that's pretty obvious as there are no FWD F1 cars or ultimate drag cars, but to dismiss front drivers if you have never used one in "anger" is ridiculous !

[terence]

FWD= change of technique, although everything being smooth, stays the same.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Ditto so have I , and had a pretty good go in the competition world on 2 and 4 wheels with over 300 wins in 50 years !

Yes Terry and I prefer RWD as that's what we were brought up on in our formative years, however front drivers are here to stay whether we like it or not.
Modern FWD cars have got better and better over the years since the Mini appeared in 1959 that changed the way that cars handled and performed.

Ultimately a RWD will initially out perform a FWD off the mark and a 4x4 will out perform both, that's pretty obvious as there are no FWD F1 cars or ultimate drag cars, but to dismiss front drivers if you have never used one in "anger" is ridiculous !

I too have races both.

At the end of the day the rear wheel drive saloon cars have a weight penalty imposed on them in competition and that pretty much upholds that they make better cars! All wheel drive cars are better still!

Rear wheel drive cars split the control of the car in that you have the option of control through both the front axle; steering; and the rear axle; power.

At the end of the day I would agree with Dragger that I hate front wheel drive cars, and I try really hard to avoid them! Gordon to a lesser extent too apparently!

Can I now start on automatic transmissions and unnecessary gimmicks which I hate even more than FWD!

P.S. Front wheel drive seems amazingly good in the snow. Still hate it though!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by wnut

Can I now start on automatic transmissions and unnecessary gimmicks which I hate even more than FWD!

P.S. Front wheel drive seems amazingly good in the snow. Still hate it though!

Things like "traction control" that stop you doing what you want to do
they are better on snow and mud though.
As for autos, in my daily job I drive either and to be honest if I lived in and always drove around towns I would use an automatic all the time.

I dont actually"hate" FWD and as there are fewer rear drivers being made I don't think there is a lot we can do about it

[Woolley]

I think it was Will Hoy who was asked the difference in technique between the two. He said:

"With FWD you are a hooligan on the way in, precise in the middle and a hooligan on the way out. RWD is the opposite"

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Perhaps its time to get used to FWD,when you are,then come back and tell the people of your findings.Sounds like you have very limited experience of fwd,you should know that the power gets put down a lot earlier than rwd,its called traction-being aided by the weight covering the driven wheels-therefore pulling you out of the corner as opposed to pushing.

I've owned 2 FWD cars and will never own another one. During mid-corner the front tires are doing 100% of the steering, applying torque to the front tires reduces the amount of grip for cornering and any actual acceleration transfers weight away from the front tires, towards the rear, further reducing front-end grip even moreso. This is why F1 cars and 99% of the world's fastest purpose built race cars are anything but FWD.

Weight transfer is one more reason why RWD/AWD cars can accelerate earlier than a FWD car can. That is why you don't see too many FWD McLarens, Ferraris, or Lambos. If the Dodge Viper were made FWD, do you really think it would handle better? Obviously not. If the Civic Si were RWD, would it handle better? Of course.

[Adam43]

I think a lot of people wonder why you started a thread on this on a discussion forum. Surely it wasn't just to repeat the accepted wisdom of the last hundred years? We're all in this opinion, it's the kind of thing you twig when you're eleven. What do you want? A yes you're right from everyone? It is interesting to hear how it isn't so black and white and the experiences of the good ones that go against the trend.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Dragger

I've owned 2 FWD cars and will never own another one. During mid-corner the front tires are doing 100% of the steering, applying torque to the front tires reduces the amount of grip for cornering and any actual acceleration transfers weight away from the front tires, towards the rear, further reducing front-end grip even moreso. This is why F1 cars and 99% of the world's fastest purpose built race cars are anything but FWD.

Weight transfer is one more reason why RWD/AWD cars can accelerate earlier than a FWD car can. That is why you don't see too many FWD McLarens, Ferraris, or Lambos. If the Dodge Viper were made FWD, do you really think it would handle better? Obviously not. If the Civic Si were RWD, would it handle better? Of course.

you seem to be repeating yourself - but I cannot work out what point you are trying to make. For most of the countries of the world FWD is perfectly fine for road cars. However FWD is less suitable for large-engined gas guzzlers like the standard USA market has.
So, we all recognise that you don't like FWD; what are you going to do about it, start a new car manufacturing company?

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Dragger

I've owned 2 FWD cars and will never own another one. During mid-corner the front tires are doing 100% of the steering, applying torque to the front tires reduces the amount of grip for cornering and any actual acceleration transfers weight away from the front tires, towards the rear, further reducing front-end grip even moreso. This is why F1 cars and 99% of the world's fastest purpose built race cars are anything but FWD.

Weight transfer is one more reason why RWD/AWD cars can accelerate earlier than a FWD car can. That is why you don't see too many FWD McLarens, Ferraris, or Lambos. If the Dodge Viper were made FWD, do you really think it would handle better? Obviously not. If the Civic Si were RWD, would it handle better? Of course.

I didn't read this whole tread but yeah I can't stand fwd. I have only owned rwd but have had to drive a few fwd cars and they are awful.

Off topic but it's cool you live in Gainesville I just moved from the to Daytona.

[terence]

All starting to sound a bit like a student spouting off about something he's just learnt in school.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Funny, I've only driven manual trans cars and motorcycles(dirtbikes) since I was 5.

And how long ago was that?

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think a lot of people wonder why you started a thread on this on a discussion forum. Surely it wasn't just to repeat the accepted wisdom of the last hundred years? We're all in this opinion, it's the kind of thing you twig when you're eleven. What do you want? A yes you're right from everyone? It is interesting to hear how it isn't so black and white and the experiences of the good ones that go against the trend.

For one to spark debate, we're up to 3 pages now, which is better than two people agreeing with each other for 2-3 posts.

For another to see what people, like minded performance enthusiasts, think about FWD.

And third, to bring to light and expose FWD to non-performance enthusiasts as nothing more than a cheaper way to build cars. Up until the 1970's cars were for the most part built by car drivers for car drivers. Now they are built by bean counters, accountants. I don't much care for that. I'm passionate about cars, I don't see them as appliances or accessories, more and more of each generation are moving away from cars as enjoyment.

Some people don't like a brand of car or only like a certain brand of car or cars built from a certain country, to me that's blind ignorance. However breaking down the facts(not opinion) and seeing it for what it is, that's when we see what is actually better(for that purpose).

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

you seem to be repeating yourself - but I cannot work out what point you are trying to make. For most of the countries of the world FWD is perfectly fine for road cars. However FWD is less suitable for large-engined gas guzzlers like the standard USA market has.
So, we all recognise that you don't like FWD; what are you going to do about it, start a new car manufacturing company?

If you don't want to debate, okay.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by garcon

And how long ago was that?

30 years ago.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by terence bower

All starting to sound a bit like a student spouting off about something he's just learnt in school.

And yet we have three pages of people that disagree without providing a counter argument, no sources, just resorting to personal insults.

[garcon]

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Snoopy Debating Society.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Dragger

And I'm used to incorrect and broad generalizations. Nothing new...

Which you seem to be spouting a lot of with regards to RWD vs FWD. The issue many people have with your comments is regards to the fact that you believe FWD is rubbish, with the only supporting evidence (as you keep banging on about) being a time trial list for a US raceway.

Just surprises me that something so "rubbish" as FWD is used in so many HIGH END touring car championships.

Mid engined RWD MC12 vs a FWD BTCC car with less power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0ZyQhROBE.