"ALL American cars are RUBBISH."

[noise boy 2]

Well they are not all ****. This is my daily driver (30,000 miles per year) Turns and stops just as well as it goes (courtesy of 700lb/in springs in the front and polyurethane bushings and a disc brake conversion). Although I feel that most new american cars are junk (I define new as post 1973). Robert

[429CJ]

Camaro...1968 model, I wish I have one...

[Bluebottle]

Welcome to the forum Noise Boy 2, and I like your way of thinking re 'new'

[noise boy 2]

Why thank you, I like chrome bumpers, what can I say. Robert

[Airhead]

From an Australian perspective:

People have spoken about roads, and yes we have straight ones, but not the money to turn every one of them into a super highway. So most have curves still.

The thng missing in the analysis is the front wheel drive versus rear wheel drive argument. The Fords mentioned by Tristan earlier on are all small to medium sized front drivers that handle well enough. Until you want to leave the city limits and can use more power than 2 litres tops can offer.

There is nothing like having a rear wheel drive car with a lot of power (as I think TimD alluded to previously). It is great fun, and yes great fun through corners too, oversteer is. Understeering front drivers are just boring.

In Australia, you can have your handling and power too, the plain Jane V6 Commodore isn't a bad drive even with a 50's Buick engine in the front end. Plenty of torque and subsequently plenty of go. The much more talented BA Falcon is a good handling car, rear wheel drive, 4.0 Litres, DOHC 4 valves per cylinder (plus the option of turbo charging).

This is a family car that will eat a Mondeo! Even round corners. For about five grand more than the Mondeo.

Sure small front drive hot hatches are fun (I had a Mini Cooper S after all) but in less conjested countries where you have a choice in the same price range, rear drive larger cars make more sense. For going round corners too.

[Chui]

AMoffat, I work for Ford and actually worked extensively on the Falcon and Ghia in '99. I had one to drive here in the 'States for little over a year and loved it. Had the opportunity to drive down the Great Ocean Highway. Lovely. Fell in love with Melbourne. Must get back.

[Airhead]

Chui,

If you liked the AU, you'd love the BA. The BA is a vast improvement. What are your thoughts on the handling discussion in regard to USA versus the rest?

[Chui]

Handling wise the cars are "different" in that cars are made for the environments they most commonly see. In the US we emphasize maximum grip (wide, flat roads) whereas in, say, England, nimbless is emphasized. Germany is more for stability at triple-digit speeds; not as nimble as, say, French (alps), Italian (alps) and British (B-roads) cars, but very fast nonetheless.

A Z06 Corvette on a road course is as fast [probably much faster] than any European car costing three times as much, but it may not feel as well to those accustomed to the steering feel and feedback of, say, a Noble GT or Lotus Elise. It may come across as a little bit "numb" or a bit "crude" [actually, it's probably not as nimble as a Boxster], but it'll out corner, out brake, out accelerate just about anything within reason. 911 Turbo? No problem. 360 Modena? Sure. Why not?

Usually, the faster cars are not as agile as the slower, lighter cars. Few cars approach the MX-5 Miata, Honda ITR, Renault Clio Cup, Cooper S and Focus RS in "nimbleness". Yet none of these cars are "911 fast". But since the limits are so darned high on all of these except maybe the Miata you'd have to be incredibly lacking a functioning cerebral cortex to fully exploit them on anything short of a High Performance Driving Event. So raw quickness around a track is not the end all meter stick by which sports cars should be measured. Not by any means. My ITR is "difficult" because there's no place to play. A Miata would be the more fun car to drive day-to-day since it's ultimate limits are lower. Sure, the Honda's quicker just about everywhere [except the really tight stuff], but you cannot readily use the advantage(s). Not unless I'm at an autocross event or, better yet, at a HPDE.

The Ford GT is quicker than a 360 Modena by "about 2 seconds" at Gratten [MI] which is partially due to the prodigious torque, but also due to "fail-safe" handling at it's limits [or would that be our Vehicle Dynamicist's limits?]. We are fully capable of developing a well-handling car [FF Platform or FR Platform and, apparently, a Mid-engine Platform]. Witness the Ford ST170 or SVT Focus, the SVT Contour [Mondeo ST170?], Corvette Z06 and the new Dodge Neon SRT-4 as well as the previous Neon ACR, as well as the Viper GT-S.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Hurricane
There's no such thing as a 'Stupid V8'

I must disagree, drove a Ford Crown Victoria from LA to Sanfran up the Big Sur once and was amazed at the complete lack of feedback from under the thing. It might have had a fuel injected 5 litre bent eight but it handled like a land yatch.

On the other hand, I drove a Pontiac Grand Am for a few months in the eighties and fell in love with its good handling, power and reliabilty. I wouldn't generalise about "yank tanks" if I were you!!

[Tristan]

"A Z06 Corvette on a road course is as fast [probably much faster] than any European car costing three times as much"

Again, we've gone through this - Vettes are RUBBISH.

And thus "All American Cars Are Rubbish". The end.

[Airhead]

Tristan, such insightful analysis, and the rest of us wonder why the British Empire fell in a smouldering heap?

I think you would love the chance to try some real muscle.

[Tristan]

Tee hee!! I thought my thesis was quite deep and profound, atch!!

But seriously, I've already jabbered on (and on and on) about the Vette earlier on in this topic. AND WON. So ner.

Ergo - "ALL American cars are rubbish".

[Wrex]

Tell me again Tristian, what sort of car you own?

No, what about the last one you owned?

I want to know what your infinate wisdom is based on.

[Bluebottle]

Strange how quiet it gets around here when we ask him that!

Come on Trissy, confess...

[Tristan]

You KNOW this!! I've already said that a) I've never OWNED a car and b) the fastest car I've ever driven is an Audi TT, which isn't exactly cowabunga fast, so yes, what I'm saying is based purely on the veiws of motoring jounos the world over ie that ALL American cars are arse and that's the end of that then!!

When have you EVER seen a US car win any group test EVER?? When Evo (the font of all worthwhile knowledge) tested the Vette Z06 it came last. When Autocar tested the new Viper THIS WEEK, it came bottom. PLUS there are the ONLY two examples of anything that can be vaguely described as a "sports car" that the US car industry produces. And they're not very good.

Thus, ALL American cars are rubbish. Or else they'd sell them here.

[evo]

Originally posted by Tristan
When Evo (the font of all worthwhile knowledge) tested the Vette Z06 it came last.

No, that's not true. I've never tested a Z06 and would probably never put it last. OH, you mean the magazine...

[Chui]

Originally posted by Tristan
You KNOW this!! I've already said that a) I've never OWNED a car and b) the fastest car I've ever driven is an Audi TT, which isn't exactly cowabunga fast, so yes, what I'm saying is based purely on the veiws of motoring jounos the world over ie that ALL American cars are arse and that's the end of that then!!

When have you EVER seen a US car win any group test EVER?? When Evo (the font of all worthwhile knowledge) tested the Vette Z06 it came last. When Autocar tested the new Viper THIS WEEK, it came bottom. PLUS there are the ONLY two examples of anything that can be vaguely described as a "sports car" that the US car industry produces. And they're not very good.

Thus, ALL American cars are rubbish. Or else they'd sell them here.

For someone who has not OWNED a car you sure are opinionated...

I recall both the "lowly" Viper GT-S and Corvette Z06 whipping much Euro-arse at Circuit de la Sarthe, Nurburgring and a host of other classic race tracks.

And to suggest that "if it's good it would be sold here is utter cow droppings, mate. The Lotus Elise isn't here and never have any of the lightweight Carreras been imported here. Guess they are Euro-Trash, eh, mate?

evo tests the cars for their environment; namely Britain. If you wish to put your pences where your pursed lips are get a stopwatch, two exmaples of any car for under $150k (plus or minus $25k ) and that "lowly" Vette will spank it's arse. Period.

Where the Vette fails is the interior materials (and for me, anyways, the layout). evo stated the same. There's no denying what the vehicle can do; namely kick the **** out of other more expensive steel, aluminum and fiberglass.

Get real. Get a car. And then get some driving time behind the wheel. Then come speak to us about "how good" car (a), (b) and (c) is supposed to be.

[noise boy 2]

Couldn't agree with chui more. Robert