Symonds - We're not fast enough

[Ingsy]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=38492

Perhaps Alonso made the right call afterall?

[touringlegend]

Or perhaps it's because Renault are without Alonso..

[Ingsy]

So this is the true pace of where Renault are (and have been?) and it was Alonso that made the difference in the past?

[Knowlesy]

They are missing Alonso, that's the main thing. But they are probably behind car wise as well, compared to previous years thanks to the tyres and everything, so it's probably a bit of both.

[FPV GTHO]

The absence of Alonso has probably also been felt on the development side.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

The absence of Alonso has probably also been felt on the development side.

Don't forget that Mclaren are also missing one or two notable persons.As are Ferrari.

[Snrub]

Given the resources of most teams and the number of drivers they employ, I don't think that having one particular driver vs. another significantly contributes to the performance of the car. Rare exceptions such as MS may occur. If anything I would think that the guys like Wurz who've exclusively performed testing for years are probably best at giving techincal feedback. Race drivers are employeed based on their ability to race. Test drivers are employed based on their ability to give technical feedback, etc.

[neilap]

That is true to a point but only the race driver can give technical feedback during and after the race. Also, I feel Alonso is one of those gifted drivers. He seems to be superbly talented and able to extract the max from his car. No test driver can make a driver fast. Its also not just talent, his feedback has to be on point for him to get what it takes to make him faster. I think stint at Mac will prove or disprove this.

Renault is having tire issues to my understanding. I think they way they used the tires was their biggest advantage in their winning years. I remember reading years ago that the worked with Michelin on developing a unique suspension set up. I dont remember the details.
I am not convinced Fissi is 2nd rate, maybe compared to the 2 times world champ but Alonso is a very tough task. I think there will be a lot of sand tossed out of these cars as the season opener comes closer.

[Snrub]

Fisi was too fast in the past, eg. at Sauber and Jordan to have been blown away in the manner in which he was by Alonso and others. How many times was Alonso in 1st or 2nd an Fisi was down in 6th or 8th? As many have suggested, I don't see it as an ability issue so much as a head issue. I haven't heard or read any information that would lead me to believe that Alonso has some sort of technical matery that gives him a unique advantage.

[Kieran20]

i wouldnt say alonso made the difference in the renault, when where he and renault fastest?, at the start of the season yes, but renault have been strong the last 2 years at the sdtart, that has made the difference for alonso to win the champiosnhip.

alonso and renault have fought 2 years, on damage limitation to a huge lead they gained at the start when everybody had problems. they have never been fastest. i think its the same old story now, but the other teams look much stronger.

dont get me wrong, alonso is a great talent, but really he has been lucky, to win 2 world championships. if the mclaren in 2005 actually finished, raikkonen would have cleaned house, and well we know what hapened this year. schumacher engine blow costing 10 points and basically the championship. ok alonsos engine blew also, but look at where the two would most likely finished in each race, minus more problems in brazil for schumacher, alonso = 1 lucky man, and the way in which he was celebrating when he saw schumachers car at the side of the road when he passed says it all.

more to the point, i think this is the same old story for renault, never really the fastest, just a few good breaks at the start of each season when everyone else was struggling. this year, doesnt seem to be the case, as the others seem very strong.

[Knowlesy]

Alonso made a big difference. Look where Fisi was relative to him for a kick off.

But yes, seven wins per season is a sure sign of pure luck. Not a hint of skill required to beat the likes of Schumacher over a full season. Both titles were rubbish and diminished immensely.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

schumacher engine blow costing 10 points and basically the championship. ok alonsos engine blew also, but look at where the two would most likely finished in each race, minus more problems in brazil for schumacher, alonso = 1 lucky man,

You failed to mention Alonso's bearing problem at Hungary robbing him of 10 points, so let's go through it again.....

Michael lost 10 points at Japan, and proberbly 5 for not winning at Brazil, so he should have had 136 points.

Fernando lost 6 points at Monza, but gained 2 for Michael's engine at Japan, plus had Michael won in Brazil, we'd need to take 2 off, but then add the 10 he should have had at Hungary and i make it that he should have had 146 points, so he'd still have won the WDC.

Don't forget the grossly unfair penalty he recieved at Monza (although his blow up put paid to that) and the mass damper scenario and all in all i think he did a fair job. (And yes i know, Michael's penalty at Monaco, but he bought that on himself, plus they both got penalties at Hungary so thats even stevens there).

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Alonso made a big difference. Look where Fisi was relative to him for a kick off.

But yes, seven wins per season is a sure sign of pure luck. Not a hint of skill required to beat the likes of Schumacher over a full season. Both titles were rubbish and diminished immensely.

thats not what im saying , im just saying he was lucky enough that others had problems he could pick up on, nmd really this is why he wonmt the championships. hes far better than fisi, and hes a great driver, but i just think him and renault were no match for kimi and mclaren, and schumacher and ferrari. just the start of the season helpe him out gain a lead.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by Mr V

You failed to mention Alonso's bearing problem at Hungary robbing him of 10 points, so let's go through it again.....

Michael lost 10 points at Japan, and proberbly 5 for not winning at Brazil, so he should have had 136 points.

Fernando lost 6 points at Monza, but gained 2 for Michael's engine at Japan, plus had Michael won in Brazil, we'd need to take 2 off, but then add the 10 he should have had at Hungary and i make it that he should have had 146 points, so he'd still have won the WDC.

Don't forget the grossly unfair penalty he recieved at Monza (although his blow up put paid to that) and the mass damper scenario and all in all i think he did a fair job. (And yes i know, Michael's penalty at Monaco, but he bought that on himself, plus they both got penalties at Hungary so thats even stevens there).

well the peanlty for michael was not fair, as alonso clearly slowed down delibertley to make michael pass, was very cleverly done, and got micahel penatly. but this is just what im saying. im not saying michael doesnt do this, as we know michael has done some things out of order in the past, but really you look at alonso and i think hes not far off on this case. trying to drive doornbos off road, slowing down to give other a penalty, frantically waving arms in every session. i am keen to see what his next stunt is

i dotn want to get into an argument about the championship anyway, my original point was renualt have never really beeen the fastest team , and i was using the past two seasons as an example. nothing has changed from now, and to make things worse they have not got alonso to compensate, but neither was alonso making as much of a differnce as everyone is maiing out to be, as he was on damage limitation throughout the last 2 3rds of 2005 and 2006.

ph yer and imo, button qwould have beat alosno in hungray, alonso went to slicks too early

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

well the peanlty for michael was not fair, as alonso clearly slowed down delibertley to make michael pass, was very cleverly done, and got micahel penatly.

Are you saying Fernando made Michael stop the car at Monaco during qualifying?

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Are you saying Fernando made Michael stop the car at Monaco during qualifying?

no. im talking about hungary when the red flag came out. alosnos was infront of michael, and he literally alomst came to a dead stop, michael drove by, into the pits, alonso the drove into pits. michael penalised.

where you got the monaco incedent from i dont know i didnt even mention it

[luke]

I have said this before but I see this as a re-birth of 1996. Briatore all; 'We can win with out him approach' I think they will decline, a win or two, but Fisi who is not world championship material and a rookie also none the less, I see nothing convincing about them winning the drivers or constructors.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

no. im talking about hungary when the red flag came out. alosnos was infront of michael, and he literally alomst came to a dead stop, michael drove by, into the pits, alonso the drove into pits. michael penalised.

I'm sorry, but Michael was (is) a 7 times WDC, most winningest driver in the histroy of the sport etc etc, nobody made him overtake Alonso

Originally Posted by Kieran20

where you got the monaco incedent from i dont know i didnt even mention it

Maybe because i mentioned it in the post you originally quoted, or maybe you don't read what others post

Originally Posted by Mr V

(And yes i know, Michael's penalty at Monaco, but he bought that on himself, plus they both got penalties at Hungary so thats even stevens there).

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm sorry, but Michael was (is) a 7 times WDC, most winningest driver in the histroy of the sport etc etc, nobody made him overtake Alonso




Maybe because i mentioned it in the post you originally quoted, or maybe you don't read what others post

know body made michael pass him, but then michael could have easily said, "i thought he was pulling off, because he was certainatley going slow enough!

sorry man, but i see this as a bit of against schumy stufff again. if aschumy did it to alonso, there would be the biggesty thread in the world saying how much of a ..... schumacher is. it was blatent what alonso did.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

but i see this as a bit of against schumy stufff again.

This is not a "against Schummy" stuff again at all. We (well i) was/were discussing the merits of Fernando and Michael's season in 2006, you believe that Michael was unlucky and Fernando was lucky, i believe that Fernando did more than enough to win the championship and Michael didn't, but it is certainly not anything "against Michael" on my part.

[neilap]

Its strange that someone could use Renaults strong form at the start of the season against them or their drivers. Alonso knew that by the end of both seasons he did not have the best car. So he did the smart thing, he finished races! So while Kimmi was going fast and flat spotting tires Alonso was finishing races. When MS was running wide in turns and destroying his car, FA was finishing races. Yeah, it took luck but he also had the talent and the team to put him in the position to take advantage of others misfortune.

[Kieran20]

well my origianl intention was not to bring up the two championships!, jus to use them as an example that renault have never really beenm the fastest team! get me?!

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by neilap

Its strange that someone could use Renaults strong form at the start of the season against them or their drivers. Alonso knew that by the end of both seasons he did not have the best car. So he did the smart thing, he finished races! So while Kimmi was going fast and flat spotting tires Alonso was finishing races. When MS was running wide in turns and destroying his car, FA was finishing races. Yeah, it took luck but he also had the talent and the team to put him in the position to take advantage of others misfortune.

yes i agree, but him doing what he could only do, means he was on damage limitation, adn was lucky enought o have everyone else either destroying their cars whatever. i am not saying by any means alonso did no deserve to win the championships, i respect the guy alot, i think hjes a great talent, and a great champion, but i just feel he really had luck on his side when doing so.

if everyone else did not shred tyres, have engines blow up every race, he would not have won (at least in 05). now lets get back on topic

[Gt_R]

Is it just me who thinks that this thread is not heading the way as intended by the title?

In 2006, we had the pleasure of watching two really good drivers fight for the WDC, and since 2000 between Mika and Michael, we can safely say that whoever took the WDC, both drivers deserve it.

The results is fitting as Renault had managed to put together a better car over a season, even though it isn't the quickest at the end of year. Consistency is important, and Fernando is sensible to not waste it. Playing catch-up is always riskier than protecting a lead. So Fernando walks off with his title, while Michael walks off ending his career being faster than everyone else. Really, that's all to it.

Back to the topic, it is natural that Renault is concerned about the pace of their car. While their reliability is solid, they havent shown a match to Mclaren's pace. I believe that this has probably got to do with a conservative approach to the season, coupled with the team not having adapted to the new tyres as much as the others. But fundamentally, i don't think Renault has much to worry.

As for drivers, while Fisi and HK are not bad drivers, i don't think they could extract the best from a Renault. Of course, Alonso couldn't have made a mid-field car win the championship too, but i believe a driver of MS/FA calibre will be able to put the same car a couple of positions further up in qualifying, grab 10 or more points over a season, and really bring the most of the car. Something which Fisi is unlikely to do, and HK can't possibly do in his first F1 season.

[Andrew2001]

I definately think Alonso is an impossibly big gap to fill - Fisichella is simply not up to the task. Period.