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Old 20 Apr 2015, 06:21 (Ref:3529207)   #2401
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Maybe we are reading it wrong, when your only goal is 1st place then you obviously don't think about who is second best even if you are the 3rd We know that Porsche is super quick at qualifying (this was also the case last year), but at race pace they haven't show us that domination.

There are bigger differences between Porsche and Toyota than only battery system, and we must know that batteries improve maybe 8% or 9% per year so we may see this as normal roadmap for Toyota and maybe even Audi.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 06:41 (Ref:3529209)   #2402
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Maybe we are reading it wrong, when your only goal is 1st place then you obviously don't think about who is second best even if you are the 3rd We know that Porsche is super quick at qualifying (this was also the case last year), but at race pace they haven't show us that domination.
Agreed , and I addressed this in my "benchmarking" comment.

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There are bigger differences between Porsche and Toyota than only battery system, and we must know that batteries improve maybe 8% or 9% per year so we may see this as normal roadmap for Toyota and maybe even Audi.
Well then, the least one can say is that it seems Porsche got it right when they choose the battery system over the other two options.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 06:59 (Ref:3529215)   #2403
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Just to reinforce my point:
“Our hybrid technology is just sensational. It puts us in a good position in both the short and long term”. Mark Webber
http://www.joomag.com/magazine/eraci...28721981?short
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 07:41 (Ref:3529229)   #2404
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The battery system may be the right choice, but there is a big difference between battery cells and battery pack, we will see how hard is it to keep cells happy the whole 24 hours in what Porsche said this year in a lighter battery pack.

Also interesting is that Toyota was doing 1-2 lap less per stint than Porsche, yes higher MJ class gets you more range but only 1% difference on paper and if track was really so hybrid unfriendly this still shows us that Toyota is lagging in efficiency. Or maybe this is the source of Porsche lack of pace in the race because they were saving fuel for 30 laps stints?

Did anyone time the refuelling, was Toyota really dry after 28 laps or was this part of their strategy, after all they pitted first in FCY and 29-30 laps would be really hard fit for one pit stop less.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 08:08 (Ref:3529236)   #2405
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The battery system may be the right choice, but there is a big difference between battery cells and battery pack, we will see how hard is it to keep cells happy the whole 24 hours in what Porsche said this year in a lighter battery pack.

Also interesting is that Toyota was doing 1-2 lap less per stint than Porsche, yes higher MJ class gets you more range but only 1% difference on paper and if track was really so hybrid unfriendly this still shows us that Toyota is lagging in efficiency. Or maybe this is the source of Porsche lack of pace in the race because they were saving fuel for 30 laps stints?

Did anyone time the refuelling, was Toyota really dry after 28 laps or was this part of their strategy, after all they pitted first in FCY and 29-30 laps would be really hard fit for one pit stop less.
I would really like to continue this discussion, but perhaps we should move it over to the Porsche thread.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 09:16 (Ref:3529246)   #2406
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It seems that the Mods are ok with discussing this here

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The battery system may be the right choice, but there is a big difference between battery cells and battery pack, we will see how hard is it to keep cells happy the whole 24 hours in what Porsche said this year in a lighter battery pack.
One of the said advantages of the Porsche system is its flexibility. I'm sure that they recognize that difficulty and will implement a hybrid strategy that best manages those issues. I don't expect to see them racing with their system on "full blast" through out the entire 24hours. In this respect I think Audi may have the best system.

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Also interesting is that Toyota was doing 1-2 lap less per stint than Porsche, yes higher MJ class gets you more range but only 1% difference on paper and if track was really so hybrid unfriendly this still shows us that Toyota is lagging in efficiency. Or maybe this is the source of Porsche lack of pace in the race because they were saving fuel for 30 laps stints?
Porsche was definitely in fuel saving mode (as confirmed by Marc Lieb) as they knew they were unable to double stint their tires (I'm not sure if anyone else double stinted) and were betting on doing as few stops as possible.

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Did anyone time the refuelling, was Toyota really dry after 28 laps or was this part of their strategy, after all they pitted first in FCY and 29-30 laps would be really hard fit for one pit stop less.
I did not.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 11:33 (Ref:3529263)   #2407
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Porsche was definitely in fuel saving mode (as confirmed by Marc Lieb) as they knew they were unable to double stint their tires (I'm not sure if anyone else double stinted) and were betting on doing as few stops as possible.
The other two factories did double stint - Toyota did it first with the #1 which forced Audi into doing the same with the #7.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 12:15 (Ref:3529269)   #2408
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Ah! I missed that. Thanks.
Porsche did not. They knew they could not, and so because they knew every stop required a tire change (at least two tires), they needed to try and make as few as possible. Sound reasoning.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 13:16 (Ref:3529286)   #2409
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I am a fan of the Eta Tau podcast, a German podcast (sometimes German language, sometimes English language) on various technical topics. Very in-depth discussion of technical issues with experts in different fields. The host had a nearly 3 hour conversation in English with various people at Toyota Motorsport GMBH. The interview starts with Alastair Moffitt, then proceeds to a number of engineers, with an in-depth discussion of various aspects of racecar design, as well as some insight into what TMG's facilities and their various business activities. Definitely a worthwhile listen for technically-minded Toyota LMP-1 fans.

http://omegataupodcast.net/2015/04/170-race-car-design/
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 14:30 (Ref:3529321)   #2410
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I'm struggling to understand what they meant by this: If they were referring to Porsche's battery system, then is it not true that Toyota will be going to a battery system similar to Porsche's next year? Is it not strange to opt to go to a similar system if they consider it to be "non- threatening"?
If they are talking about Porsche being in the 8MJ class, then Toyota is also working on joining the 8 MJ class next year, so it makes no sense.
To not be too worried about a team (albeit two different cars) that won the last race of the season, had 50% of the poles in last years championship and got pole in the first race of this year's championship and came second only to Audi in the first race, seems to me to be disingenuous ( and to be honest a little disrespectful) at the very least.
Why would Porsche become less of a threat as races go on? There was certainly no indication of this at Silverstone (The worst track for Porsche in the championship), and I still have to read/hear from any of the Porsche drivers or engineers complaining about their system not working properly as the race go on.
Porsche weak point seems to be with there tire-wear, not their hybrid system.
If by all of this what they were really trying to say is that they are benchmarking against Audi rather than Porsche, then I can fully understand that. Porsche are doing the same. The difference is that Porsche are doing that without disrespecting Toyota.
The engineers said that Porsche's energy recovery system recovers far less energy as the race goes on compared to Audi and Toyota, and so they have less power and so become less of a threat.
Their words, not mine.
As I mentioned in my first post, I'm not at all technically minded, I'm just passing along what was said as I thought some people might find it interesting.

I don't think it was Toyota disrespecting Porsche. It was two engineers pointing out what they perceive to be a flaw in a rival's system.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 14:41 (Ref:3529322)   #2411
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I don't think it was Toyota disrespecting Porsche. It was two engineers pointing out what they perceive to be a flaw in a rival's system.
Flaw, or weakness?

I've heard that Audi have got it all wrong going diesel before, that Toyota are mad for going for such a large-capacity petrol engine and that Porsche's batteries are a design flaw. All three have won races - and convincingly so.

The "perfect" LMP1 car isn't out there, or if it is, we're miles away from it. Every design is about compromise and that means the three main manufacturers have different strengths and different weaknesses. I'm not sure any of the three have flaws - not in the Nissan sense of the word at least.

I think all three manufacturers will win races this year and all three have a realistic chance of winning Le Mans. Porsche's system may diminish substantially come Sunday at Le Mans, but even if they win by a solitary second, it will mean they've found the best set of compromises mixed with the luck needed to win.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 14:57 (Ref:3529327)   #2412
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The engineers said that Porsche's energy recovery system recovers far less energy as the race goes on compared to Audi and Toyota, and so they have less power and so become less of a threat.
But what makes it supposedly recover less energy as the race goes on are the batteries, and Toyota are going to a battery system next year. How does that make sense?

Anyway, Ginger said it better than I.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 17:42 (Ref:3529384)   #2413
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So, the Porsche battery system degrades faster than the supercapacitors. Audi's flywheel degrades less but stores less and must do multiple electrical-mechanical-electrical conversions. Nissan sees an opportunity to go with a system that stores less, degrades less and theoretically loses less in conversions of energy. I really want to see them get that working to see if this theoretical ranking of systems holds any weight.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 17:48 (Ref:3529392)   #2414
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But what makes it supposedly recover less energy as the race goes on are the batteries, and Toyota are going to a battery system next year. How does that make sense?
My understanding is that as it charges and discharges, it loses its ability to hold that charge. For example on of my laptop batteries can only hold 1/4 of its original 'amount'.

Battery tech is also getting better and better every year, and at some point is probably going to pass supercaps (in terms of WEC here), so it makes sense for Toyota to switch.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 17:55 (Ref:3529396)   #2415
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But what makes it supposedly recover less energy as the race goes on are the batteries, and Toyota are going to a battery system next year. How does that make sense?

Anyway, Ginger said it better than I.
Batteries are electro-chemical reactors. There are irreversible side reactions and changes to microstructure that occur in the anode and cathode materials "just because". These side reactions are sped up when temperatures are elevated (aka heavy load, high discharge rates). The side reactions permanently destroy sections of the battery on a micro - nano scale. Since the capacity is function of the amount of useful anode and cathode material, you get reduction of capacity.


Now this is not something that cannot be overcome. If your battery is over designed (aka larger, heavier) then the amount of stress you are putting through it to run an LMP1 for 24 hours car really doesn't hurt the battery. But when you run at the limit in order to reduce weight, the battery is stressed.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 17:56 (Ref:3529397)   #2416
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Battery technology is improving but they still are a pain to discard and re-purpose. As an 'endurance' item, they don't seem to be lasting very long.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 17:58 (Ref:3529399)   #2417
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My understanding is that as it charges and discharges, it loses its ability to hold that charge. For example on of my laptop batteries can only hold 1/4 of its original 'amount'.

Battery tech is also getting better and better every year, and at some point is probably going to pass supercaps (in terms of WEC here), so it makes sense for Toyota to switch.
Precisely! That is exactly my point. It makes no sense to identify a weak system in one of your opponents and then decide to adopt it the following year....unless of course it isn't as weak as you are making it out to be..or...it has other strengths that compensate for its weakness.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 18:01 (Ref:3529403)   #2418
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Batteries are electro-chemical reactors. There are irreversible side reactions and changes to microstructure that occur in the anode and cathode materials "just because". These side reactions are sped up when temperatures are elevated (aka heavy load, high discharge rates). The side reactions permanently destroy sections of the battery on a micro - nano scale. Since the capacity is function of the amount of useful anode and cathode material, you get reduction of capacity.


Now this is not something that cannot be overcome. If your battery is over designed (aka larger, heavier) then the amount of stress you are putting through it to run an LMP1 for 24 hours car really doesn't hurt the battery. But when you run at the limit in order to reduce weight, the battery is stressed.
Thank you for the technical lesson on batteries, but my point is illustrated in my reply in the post above this one.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 18:08 (Ref:3529406)   #2419
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I wonder if a combined capacitor+battery solution would work? A capacitor layer for quick delivery out of corners, with the battery pack sustaining the boost once the capacitors discharge? Sort of like the cache on a computer: capacitors = a cache level closer to the processor for quick access, battery = main memory.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 18:18 (Ref:3529413)   #2420
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Variable cam timing, twin (different size) turbochargers, two different rated springs in your distributors advance. All solutions to provide a variable performance over a range of parameters.

The main problem would be the weight of the systems I guess.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 18:29 (Ref:3529420)   #2421
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I wonder if a combined capacitor+battery solution would work? A capacitor layer for quick delivery out of corners, with the battery pack sustaining the boost once the capacitors discharge? Sort of like the cache on a computer: capacitors = a cache level closer to the processor for quick access, battery = main memory.
That could work if you have a solution like Porsche. A supercap gets take care of the KER (kinetic energy recovery) since it is high intensity and short duration, while the battery will get charged by he exhaust recovery since it is lower power.

Still this looks like would be a lot of extra trouble you are getting yourself into for very limited gain. That's why i think Nissan's solution once it gets mature enough would be a huge success. It can store great amount of power (less then battery, but much more than the supercap, or the flywheel in the audi), almost infinite power density, very low degradation, very high efficiency, also the simplest cheapest and lightest of all, at least in theory.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 18:50 (Ref:3529429)   #2422
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I don't see combination of battery and capacitor work in this kind of application. You need high power either for charge or discharge, I don't see combining lower power battery in the mix. If you already have high power battery I don't see benefit in having capacitors as a buffer.

As I said earlier, cells them self are only half of equation, the whole battery pack with cooling and management system counts. In practice battery pack will be larger than supercap in Le Mans this means probably only 300 full capacity cycles. And on durability note, Toyota also changed their supercap many times, meaning that that is also not so bulletproof solution.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3529438)   #2423
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I don't see combination of battery and capacitor work in this kind of application. You need high power either for charge or discharge, I don't see combining lower power battery in the mix. If you already have high power battery I don't see benefit in having capacitors as a buffer.
I find what you say quite accurate but I wanted to ask wouldn't the super capacitors absorb current spikes that the batteries cannot handle (or without handling, would extend the service life)? If the batteries and capacitors are in parallel the batteries can charge the capacitor bank when car is not in boost. Then for boost periods the capacitors can be discharged at a high rate. Similarly on regen, since you are never really regenerating 6-8MJ in a single braking zone, the capacitors can absorb the smaller amount of energy per corner and then discharge themselves into the batteries at a lower rate.

The capacitors buffer the batteries in all scenarios by absorbing the peak charge and discharge currents. This should make for a happier battery and one that can be optimized for energy density rather than power density.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3529439)   #2424
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I agree that the mechanical Flywheel holds the most potential. If, it can be made to work.

Also, I agree that possibly a hybrid/hybrid/ice system holds potential. I know weight is always an issue, but if the load and purpose are being split between systems, then they each could be smaller, lighter and more efficient.
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Old 20 Apr 2015, 19:36 (Ref:3529446)   #2425
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I know there are battery systems that are of the same type/material, but Toyota has been working on splid-state batteries and lithium air batteries as well. I think we may see a solid state battery if they completely abandon the supercap. Also it was mentioned earlier in this thread about the silicon carbide semiconductor may be used next season.
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