[BTCC] Plato's comments in Autosport

[Hawkwood]

Just wondering if anyone read Jason Plato's comments in March 31 Autosport BTCC preview, about the cars needing to be bigger.
Particularly saying that the Civic, Golf and Leon aren't really what touring cars should be, stating that he doesn't reckon they're big enough.

Just wondering what people reckon to that, agree, disagree, which cars would you like to see instead of (or along side) the Civic, Golf, Leon etc...

Personally I like having as many different marques as possible, gives more variety obviously (give me this season's BTCC over this year's DTM for example).

[nickyf1]

NGTC.

[RF_Racer]

Should be called BHCC British Hatch Car Championship

[Jimmy Magnusson]

"Proper" touring cars for me is four door saloons, and if we could have it again I'd be a happy man. But times change, today's D-segment cars are too big, heavy and luxurious to truly return to the old BTCC era - the Mondeo, A4, Insignia, Accord, all have grown just a little too much. Most "sporty" every day cars today are C-segment cars, like the Civic Type R and such. There's others, but that's mainly dull Autobahn cruisers.

Then there's the Superstars cars, but a 300C or a Maserati isn't a touring car either. The only European road car that takes me back to the Group A days is the VXR8 (And that's Australian!), everything else is too dulcet.

For the moment I sort of think C-segment is where you have to get most of the cars from, even though it doesn't entierly satisfy me. They should have more power and less grip, though.

[Sodemo]

Totally agree with Plato (for once). Touring cars should be about big saloons, not horrid looking hatchbacks. I don't mind the Leon so much, but the Golf and Civic just have the wrong shape all together. Its even more frustrating when the Accord has seen such success in the WTCC and STCC, dump the Civic Team Dynamics now!

If AMD plan to stick with VW then perhaps the Jetta could be a good move for them?

[VIVA GT]

If I remember correctly, when the original TOCA 2 litre BTCC regulations were released there was a minimum length stipulation of 4.2 metres to keep the smaller cars out.
Presumably there's still something in place to prevent everyone using Smart cars, or Tata Nano's, but what is the minimum size limit now?

[duke_toaster]

If I remember correctly it's 4.5 metres under NGTC.

[Jamesy-18]

The more types of cars on the grid the better IMO. The racing's still great, so I'm not really that bothered if some cars don't look like "proper" touring cars.

[Super Hans]

I tend to look back fondly at the 90s, when everyone drove a four-door repmobile. Those days are gone now though. Matt Neal won the title in coupe five or six years ago. I'm not sure why JP has raised this now.

[ChrisPage]

I thought we all usually had the rosed tinteds on for the days where Minis mixed it up with huge Jags. Seems the rose tints only extend as far back as the 1990s now...

Seriously, I do see where he's coming from, and a friend said the same thing when watching the Brands race (the Golf looked like it might get swallowed by some of the others - except it stayed ahead!).

Personally I think a mixture of cars is good. A lot of the big cars just look like 'Dad' cars or rep-mobiles.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I tend to look back fondly at the 90s, when everyone drove a four-door repmobile. Those days are gone now though. Matt Neal won the title in coupe five or six years ago. I'm not sure why JP has raised this now.

Ya, it's not like he raced a hatch himself for several seasons...

[Sodemo]

If I recall, the Primera was one of the smallest supertouring cars. Something that size would be ok in my opinion.

[Woolley]

I tend to think a Touring Car is one in which you could take a family of four with luggage to the south of France for a week. Grand Touring is for when the kids have left home so there's just the two of you and your luggage and you want to get there quicker or get to Sorrento in the same amount of time. Hatches are for popping to the supermarket.

Consequently Touring Cars should have an element of Touring - ie stopping for fuel, a paper and lunch while travelling a long distance. GT should be further but taking the same amount of time and I couldn't care what hatches do.

Hot hatches only need to get as far as the first corner in honour of boy racers general inability to get round the roundabout at the end of the street.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Consequently Touring Cars should have an element of Touring - ie stopping for fuel, a paper and lunch while travelling a long distance.

Ballast should take the form of small children, placed in the back, whingeing.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Ballast should take the form of small children, placed in the back, whingeing.

And here's where we came in - although I don't believe you could describe Plato and Neal as "children"

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Ya, it's not like he raced a hatch himself for several seasons...

Plato has also been getting very vocal recently about Lewis Hamilton and Whinging that the regs are not in his favour.

"Lewis Hamilton [...]I turn the TV off as soon as I see his lips move cos it's just nonsense"

And

"we were told they would equalise the performance, and so far, from what we have seen today, a bit quicker is an understatement"

It seems that when things are going his way, it's a great series that gives good racing, but when he's not got rules such as TDi boost, or flat floors working in his favour the organisers need to change the rules (like banning LPG, or restricting turbos).
IMHO, the future of BTCC lies with NGTC and teams that have embraced the new regulations should be entitled to a performance advantage, thereby encouraging others to make the change.

[Stoheshish]

Platos cave is about the perception mistaken of reality.If I were truly a resident of "the Cave" how could I be expected to know my perception was false?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It seems that when things are going his way, it's a great series that gives good racing, but when he's not got rules such as TDi boost, or flat floors working in his favour the organisers need to change the rules (like banning LPG, or restricting turbos).
IMHO, the future of BTCC lies with NGTC and teams that have embraced the new regulations should be entitled to a performance advantage, thereby encouraging others to make the change.

I just couldn't agree more.
I just suggest Plato to look back at his past and remember the days in which he was a proud SEAT works driver in a Leòn. I think he should just concentrate on driving, which is his job. Talking isn't his job for sure.
A lot of drivers understand when they can speak and when they should just shut up. Some just don't.

[Riley Blue]

The BTCC is no longer a championship for 'touring cars'. It's name should change to reflect what it now is, not what it used to be.

[Craner Curves]

I think people forget it's only been a touring car championship since 85 or 86, it was a saloon car championship before that. And what was winning when the BTCC came along and replaced the BSCC moniker? Hatchbacks.......

[jobdone]

I think the BTCC has never been more diverse. I think the mixture is great - yes I'd like to see more cars like Ford Mondeo's etc come in, but in all honesty back in the day people were champions in Mini's. A modern day Civic or Golf dwarfes those, and it's not as if they are that small anyway - you could easily get four people in a Golf and definitely in a Civic.

I'd rather have it how it is now rather than a few years ago when we were lucky to have 15 cars on the grid.

[Bramzel]

People want saloons because they want the supertourers back. Fact though is that (even though I'm a saloon-fan as well!) touring car racing has a history of non-saloons. Sierra Cosworth, BMW M3, Mini Cooper, Ford Capri, Ford Mustang, Toyota Supra, Abarth TC's, Vauxhall Astra, just to name a few from various era's.

Touringcar needs to follow it's time. Yes you can race with 3.0L Saloons, but the fact is that the majority of the sold cars are smaller cars with smaller engines. Follow the market, follow the cars on the street, and that involves hatchbacks.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I think people forget it's only been a touring car championship since 85 or 86, it was a saloon car championship before that. And what was winning when the BTCC came along and replaced the BSCC moniker? Hatchbacks.......

Yeah, but a 3.5 Rover V8 hatchback...

[Riley Blue]

So if the BTCC is no longer a championship for touring cars, why perpetuate the myth that it is? Why not acknowledge the changing market with a new name that accurately reflects it?

[Hawkwood]

Which from this season's cars are 'touring cars' and which aren't?
The Leon, Golf and Civic aren't, but what about the two Chevy models? And the BMW, the Vectra, the Toyota and the Audi? Are they touring cars? Because if they are then there's more that are than aren't.

*edit - forgot the Focus, that's probably not a tourer either*