Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4 Sep 2019, 01:34 (Ref:3925682)   #1
B!tchie Renault
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2004
Australia
Brisbane
Posts: 242
B!tchie Renault should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The P word strikes again

Story here:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/09/04...en-commodores/

and

https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...d-of-pukekohe/

Roland Dane complains again even though his team being beaten by other Holdens.
B!tchie Renault is offline  
__________________
Very Very stupid indeed!!
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 02:04 (Ref:3925685)   #2
bluesport
Veteran
 
bluesport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Australia
Posts: 3,557
bluesport User had had their licence endorsedbluesport User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by B!tchie Renault View Post
Story here:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/09/04...en-commodores/

and

https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...d-of-pukekohe/

Roland Dane complains again even though his team being beaten by other Holdens.
There has never been so many parity adjustments in one season in supercars history, this has become straight out cheating by the governing body and highlights the collusion between holden teams and supercars.
bluesport is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 02:10 (Ref:3925687)   #3
Trevor
Veteran
 
Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 1,497
Trevor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
spot on bluesport and also highlights just how much power Roland Dane wields over Supercars
Trevor is offline  
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 03:07 (Ref:3925691)   #4
johnh875
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 2,540
johnh875 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Championship is gone but still the big prize of Bathurst up for grabs.

Supercars would want to get their act together for next year I think.
johnh875 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 03:33 (Ref:3925694)   #5
HDTVKSS
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 572
HDTVKSS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I love a good strawman argument.
HDTVKSS is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 04:59 (Ref:3925697)   #6
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It's a parity series, yet people are still surprised when parity is applied?
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 05:12 (Ref:3925698)   #7
Juarez Jed
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 516
Juarez Jed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJuarez Jed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Its always been a parity series but I cant remember a manufacturer getting so many bites at the cherry during the racing season.
I think one adjustment per year should be sufficient.
Supercars have created this monster by allowing the Mustang to be so far removed from the road car in the first place in order to get Ford back in the series, and now have to appease the opposition.
Juarez Jed is offline  
__________________
home of saturday night turtle racing "ciudad de juarez raceway"
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 06:08 (Ref:3925703)   #8
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
It's a parity series, yet people are still surprised when parity is applied?
Taking wild stabs at changes without the proper airfield testing is hardly applying parity.

The time to establish parity is at the start of the year at the airfield test. It was done and dusted, parity was confirmed and that was that.

The next time to change aero kits is at the start of 2020 where revised kits can be brought along to the next airfield parity test.

Making wild stabs at in-season changes, without doing the airfield testing to confirm parity, is farcical.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 06:25 (Ref:3925706)   #9
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
It's a parity series
Someone let Nissan know...
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 06:28 (Ref:3925707)   #10
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Taking wild stabs at changes without the proper airfield testing is hardly applying parity.

The time to establish parity is at the start of the year at the airfield test. It was done and dusted, parity was confirmed and that was that.

The next time to change aero kits is at the start of 2020 where revised kits can be brought along to the next airfield parity test.

Making wild stabs at in-season changes, without doing the airfield testing to confirm parity, is farcical.
The airfield testing was farcical, which is why the category is doing what it's doing.

But you knew that...
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 06:33 (Ref:3925708)   #11
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 46,571
GTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Someone let Nissan know...
The brand has to make a submission to the Supercar Commission to detail where the deficiencies lie, and the plans and methods to overcome them.

If you dont ask, you dont get....

That said, 4 aero kit setups in 7 years of the exact same body shape suggests someone may need a new slide rule...
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
Happy David Thexton Day, 21st March 2003
“I am not uncertain” - Dollar Bill Stern, Billions
“Fear stimulates my imagination” - Don Draper, Mad Men
“Everybody Lies” - Dr Gregory House
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 07:10 (Ref:3925716)   #12
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
If you dont ask, you dont get....
So it's not a parity series then, it's a "lobbying" series.
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 07:20 (Ref:3925717)   #13
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
The airfield testing was farcical
Nonsense. It's the gold standard of aero parity in the Supercars series and works well.

Roland Dane says:
Quote:
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see that the Commodore has got a disadvantage over the Mustang, full stop.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/08/26...-disadvantage/

Making unfounded allegations like that is not how you go motor racing. Especially since the allegations are patently untrue as the season-start airfield test confirmed aero parity precisely in line with Supercars requirements for aero parity.

The best thing 888 could do is be quiet and humble, and get on with the job of designing a revised aero ZB Commodore for 2020 that hits the parity downforce and drag numbers at 200 km/hr of the airfield test, while enabling whatever other aero performance changes they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
which is why the category is doing what it's doing.

Making changes without confirming that aero parity still exists (which is defined as equivalent downforce and drag at 200 km/hr) by the gold standard Supercars airfield test is what the farce is.

Making changes willy nilly without verifying parity remains by an airfield test is the farce.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 07:25 (Ref:3925718)   #14
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That gold standard got the cars as close as they've ever been, so I definitely support sticking to it
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2019, 07:28 (Ref:3925720)   #15
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Nonsense. It's the gold standard of aero parity in the Supercars series and works well.

Roland Dane says:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/08/26...-disadvantage/

Making unfounded allegations like that is not how you go motor racing. Especially since the allegations are patently untrue as the season-start airfield test confirmed aero parity precisely in line with Supercars requirements for aero parity.

The best thing 888 could do is be quiet and humble, and get on with the job of designing a revised aero ZB Commodore for 2020 that hits the parity downforce and drag numbers at 200 km/hr of the airfield test, while enabling whatever other aero performance changes they want.




Making changes without confirming that aero parity still exists (which is defined as equivalent downforce and drag at 200 km/hr) by the gold standard Supercars airfield test is what the farce is.

Making changes willy nilly without verifying parity remains by an airfield test is the farce.
No point responding with paragraphs.

My care factor for the whole thing is pretty low.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Sep 2019, 05:43 (Ref:3925923)   #16
Mixer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Surry Hills, NSW
Posts: 6,607
Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Someone let Nissan know...
Parity doesn't compensate for an inadequate team.

I'll remind you the Kelly's didn't win anything in Commodores either!
Mixer is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 05:31 (Ref:3927661)   #17
Muznik
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Australia
Gold Coast
Posts: 531
Muznik should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMuznik should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's funny, when watching Trackside last night they were explaining the aero improvements to the Commodores.
The whole time I sat their thinking everyone is saying reduced aero leads to better racing. Why not reduce the aero on the Mustangs ?
Muznik is offline  
__________________
Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like hell.
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 11:15 (Ref:3927691)   #18
Jam3s
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 372
Jam3s should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muznik View Post
It's funny, when watching Trackside last night they were explaining the aero improvements to the Commodores.
The whole time I sat their thinking everyone is saying reduced aero leads to better racing. Why not reduce the aero on the Mustangs ?
Can you imagine the bogan uproar if they took something away from the mustang? It's probably less painful publicity to add something to the rest.
Jam3s is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 12:37 (Ref:3927709)   #19
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam3s View Post
It's probably less painful publicity to add something to the rest.
Except they dont give Nissan the same breaks as the Commodore/ Insignia gets. So 'the rest' is a bit innacurate.
E.B is online now  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 13:42 (Ref:3927723)   #20
Mixer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Surry Hills, NSW
Posts: 6,607
Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The procedures are identical for all cars.

The parity change the Nissan needs is a new team.
Mixer is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 21:27 (Ref:3927801)   #21
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.B View Post
Except they dont give Nissan the same breaks as the Commodore/ Insignia gets. So 'the rest' is a bit innacurate.
Well you don't know that and neither do I.

In this Speedcafe article Mr Dutton claims that both the Nissans and the Fords had a little more downforce than the Holdens based on data and that this latest change brings the Holdens up closer to the other two.

Now obviously he's going to say what he says to support his team / brand but it may just be accurate (& Supercars have accepted it as accurate) that the Nissans didn't need a change as they were already at a similar or the same level downforce-wise as the Fords.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 21:30 (Ref:3927802)   #22
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
The parity change the Nissan needs is a new team.
The same could be said of T8 this season. Whilst the drivers are no doubt world class, I'm hesitant to blame the "low downforce" Commodore for their pace woes - they have been getting routinely beat by other Commodores!

This is where the CFD might actually help. The software doesn't care that the Kelly's are average operators or that T8 are having a down year - it only anaylses geometry. Hopefully these newer changes were benchmarked using similar methodology, not "analysing microsectors" which of course would erroneously show car AND team parity.
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 21:47 (Ref:3927806)   #23
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam3s View Post
Can you imagine the bogan uproar if they took something away from the mustang?

Like their rear wing end plates &/or gurney flap?
Forda is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2019, 22:46 (Ref:3927814)   #24
gtcapri
Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Australia
Maitland NSW
Posts: 243
gtcapri should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam3s View Post
Can you imagine the bogan uproar if they took something away from the mustang? It's probably less painful publicity to add something to the rest.
Try and keep up James. Bogans have moved en masse into Hilux's, Tritons, Colardo's and Rangers.
gtcapri is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Sep 2019, 08:03 (Ref:3927857)   #25
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well it looks like the relentless efforts in nobbling the Mustang and favourably adjusting the Opel have now started to pay off.

888 would no doubt be very pleased with their handiwork.
Forda is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Livingstone strikes again! Craig Road Car Forum 5 29 Jun 2006 16:22
Point and shooter strikes again. Pigit Motorsport Art & Photography 28 16 Jun 2006 20:24
Mr Green's Nemesis Strikes Again! Hepatic Marshals Forum 4 31 Aug 2004 15:49
Tragedy strikes again... Jay NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 16 20 Feb 2001 23:40


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.