Modern Group A

[one five five]

If laptimes & speed are all that mattered, no one would watch anything except Indycars on a high banked oval

Quality of racing is the most important feature.

Do people care what laptimes the V8Utes are doing around Bathurst??

Originally Posted by FAS33

Yeah and its called V8 Supercars, COTF style....

errr, the "control chassis & anti-competition" ethos of CotF is about as far removed from Group A as you can get.

V8Supercars have effectively become Sports Sedans without the variety!

[mildura1963]

Would love to see some if the talented artists render some drawings of modern cars in group a guise

[Samwhk]

Agreed David.

Back on topic, if you were the head of a successful race team, in the country of choice, and International Group A regs came back in, which current model of car would be your ultimate choice as the basis for a brand new touring car?

Regs:
0-1600cc
Min weight 850kg
Max tyre width 7"

1601cc-2500cc
Min weight 1000kg
Max tyre width 8"

2500cc-4000cc
Min weight 1325kg
Max tyre width 9"

4001cc +
Min weight 1400kg
Max tyre width 10"

Brakes: Free, must retain original amount of pistons each corner

Suspension: Free, must retail original mounting points

Gearbox: Free, must retain original amount of forward gears, and be H-pattern

Diffs: Free, must retain original ratios

Wheels: Free, within weight limits

Body: silhouette original, wings/spoilers, bumpers and guards +\- 15%

Engine: Original block/heads, ecu & manifolds.

Equivalency factors: Supercharged/turbocharged x 1.9

What'd I miss?

[Samwhk]

Ooo, I know.
Maximum original price £50,000
Minimum production run 5,000

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

If laptimes & speed are all that mattered, no one would watch anything except Indycars on a high banked oval

Quality of racing is the most important feature.

Do people care what laptimes the V8Utes are doing around Bathurst??

funny you say that because the quality of racing today is streets ahead of anything that's been done in the past. and to answer ur question no, unless your involved with the series, but what does the V8 Utes gotta do with what were talking about? although I like that series.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Engine: Original block/heads, ecu & manifolds.
Equivalency factors: Supercharged/turbocharged x 1.9

I would think you wouldn't want to do it with original ECU, be better to do a control ECU so you can more easily control "creative" use of engine management.

Also I think your equivalency system for forced induction probably needs to be higher, an Evo is going to belt the **** out of anything at 4lt or above.

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Ooo, I know.
Maximum original price £50,000
Minimum production run 5,000

As long as price & minimum production are met its fine, but people start to play games with this too, a manufacturer might threaten to not appear unless their "hot" model appears. Rally went through this too. Rules always start out as ideals but slowly get prostituted over time. 50k GBP also sounds kind of high, I might suggest having it lower, but then again 5000 models worldwide is probably going to scare off most people from building a real rocket.

Still these kind of rules mean that overseas product is going to beat Australian product in a local series... Remember last time that happened?

[Samwhk]

Ok, I can agree with most of that.
If we're goin to control ecu, how about banning any form of traction/launch control & ABS, AYC etc?
The equivalently formula I just took a stab at it, most classes in NZ are 1.7 I believe.
I guess we should add a weight penalty for 4WD, say 100kg?
And forget the manufacturers whinging, this is fantasy land!

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

funny you say that because the quality of racing today is streets ahead of anything that's been done in the past.

Spoken like someone who is relying on their 'friend' youtube, rather than doing any actual research into the topic.....

Originally Posted by FAS33

but what does the V8 Utes gotta do with what were talking about? although I like that series.

You stated earlier production racing is something you wouldn't be interested in watching. V8Utes, which you state that you like, are production cars!!

Which one is it?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Body: silhouette original, wings/spoilers, bumpers and guards +\- 15%

What'd I miss?

Amendment to the above to allow modification below the centre line of the wheels but standard above it, as per DTM a few years ago I think.

Originally Posted by FAS33

funny you say that because the quality of racing today is streets ahead of anything that's been done in the past.

It's really not. It's not even as good as it was 10 years ago. As for GrpA, variety of cars used to mean that they had different strengths in different parts of the circuit, and driving standards meant overtaking and late dives for a gap were applauded, not penalised. ETCC circa 1986 was awesome, Rover V8s, Volvo 240t, BMW 635s in large numbers, hordes of Alfas in the lower classes and a right mix of shopping cars in the tiddler class made for some superb racing. Got spoiled a bit by the advent of the Sierra Cosworth and M3 which were purpose built because of the homologation rules being messed up. Great cars, but they made everything else obsolete overnight.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Woolley

It's really not. It's not even as good as it was 10 years ago. As for GrpA, variety of cars used to mean that they had different strengths in different parts of the circuit, and driving standards meant overtaking and late dives for a gap were applauded, not penalised. ETCC circa 1986 was awesome, Rover V8s, Volvo 240t, BMW 635s in large numbers, hordes of Alfas in the lower classes and a right mix of shopping cars in the tiddler class made for some superb racing. Got spoiled a bit by the advent of the Sierra Cosworth and M3 which were purpose built because of the homologation rules being messed up. Great cars, but they made everything else obsolete overnight.

I remember those days cars i couldnt relate to, racing was dull. No sense of attachment to it at all

jim Richards won virtually everything, only 7 cars competed in every race. the 100k BMW went up against a 30k commodore

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I remember those days cars i couldnt relate to, racing was dull. No sense of attachment to it at all

jim Richards won virtually everything, only 7 cars competed in every race. the 100k BMW went up against a 30k commodore

To be fair, it was much better up here, you just got the left-overs.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

Spoken like someone who is relying on their 'friend' youtube, rather than doing any actual research into the topic.....



You stated earlier production racing is something you wouldn't be interested in watching. V8Utes, which you state that you like, are production cars!!

Which one is it?

Technically their not cars

[Matt]

Originally Posted by one five five

Spoken like someone who is relying on their 'friend' youtube, rather than doing any actual research into the topic.....

how is using youtube not doing research?

instead of looking at results sheets and determining what it was like, you have the actual race broadcast in front of you.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Matt

how is using youtube not doing research?

instead of looking at results sheets and determining what it was like, you have the actual race broadcast in front of you.

See the problem is that he just found out that Fas33 is not an old man and him and others are taking every opportunity to run down his posts and bully him

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Group A racing wasn't even Production racing anyways , like as in 100% stock, they had bits and pieces added to it too, and did very similar things that you just described. and a car you'll find in those racing days you wont find at the local dealers "back in the days". .

I wasn't saying Group A is better because.... Or CoTF is worse because....
I was making a general statement


People have to remember that the no1 thing, the key element and pretty much 99% of why Group A ended was the cost. Not of the race cars, but building and selling the number of cars needed for homologation.
We all salivate about RS500s, M3 etc but the reality is for the cost of making them, they couldn't sell enough to make it worth while.

I reckon a production class is needed and with some rule tweaking could make a fun support class for the V8s.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by peckstar

See the problem is that he just found out that Fas33 is not an old man and him and others are taking every opportunity to run down his posts and bully him

Few people realize I'm the age I am as well. ;]

[ForumNick]

What... you're not 22?

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Ooo, I know.
Maximum original price £50,000
Minimum production run 5,000

we dropped the mother country's monetary system before grp C, let alone grp a

do recall M3's (or maybe 6 series, but doubt it) diving under Commodores under brakes into Murray's and Hell Corner, only to then be gobbled up again up Mountain Straight. Plenty of passing then!

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

People have to remember that the no1 thing, the key element and pretty much 99% of why Group A ended was the cost. Not of the race cars, but building and selling the number of cars needed for homologation.

Also because if you didn't have the car of the moment you were screwed. It was just an arms race.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Matt

how is using youtube not doing research?

instead of looking at results sheets and determining what it was like, you have the actual race broadcast in front of you.

Something to consider though, is that when you look back on videos, you don't get the same experience as watching it live, or without the anticipation or expectation of knowing what was going to happen.

What I mean by that is, using the Daytona 500. I recent years, there's been many close finishes with more than two cars. But with the rules constructed in way to always make a races close, I can't say that recent 500 were as compelling as both Dale and Dale shows. As extraordinary and close as the finish to the 06 Indy 500was, I can't say it was as intense or compelling as the 92 finish.

Getting back to my first point. Two of the more entertaing Superbowls in recent years (ever?) would've been the Rams/Titans and Panthers/Patriots. I've seen both on replay years later, and they don't come up as thrilling as it was live, especially the Panthers/Patriots one.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Also because if you didn't have the car of the moment you were screwed. It was just an arms race.

it was only really that way at the end though, after 1987 when the RS500 and M3 moved the game on so much, and then a couple of years later Godzilla arrived...

If you look at Europe, where Group A came in from 1982, the first year was a bit of a muddle, dominated by BMW 528s and the early appearance of the Jag XJS, plus some hangovers from the old rulebook (Capris etc)- all cars which apart from the Jag fell from favour pretty quickly, with the 635 taking over for BMW from '83 (IIRC the 5 was only ever intended as an interim car?), and Rover coming on the scene.

From then on, until 1987 it was actually pretty stable- the 635, Rover, XJS and the Volvo (once they figured out how to make it go round corners...) all remained competitive, and even when Ford introduced the first Sierra, the interim XR4Ti/Merkur in '86, although it won races, it wasn't a big step forward on the opposition.
Brock & Grice's European appearances that year probably ought to have resulted in at least one win for the Commodore, if it hadn't been for a mixture of bad luck, shortage of $ and lack of European circuit experience- both the HDT and Grice cars were pretty much on the pace from the start, in a year where BMW, Ford, Rover and Volvo all won races...

Don't forget that Walkinshaw effectively parked the XJS at the end of 84, to concentrate on sportscars and Rovers, but on the odd occasions it came back, Bathurst 85, and some late season races in Japan and NZ over the winter of 86/7, it was still competitive- the real 'arms race' in Group A didn't happen until '87.

Apart from some poor enforcement of the rules (we all know the various cheating stories), the big weakness of Group A was that 'Evolution' clause which allowed a 500-off batch of production cars to homologate a big step forward in performance- Without that, we might not have had that 'arms race' you talked about

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Technically their not cars

Dare i ask...what are they then, spaceships?

Originally Posted by FAS33

how is using youtube not doing research?

instead of looking at results sheets and determining what it was like, you have the actual race broadcast in front of you.

Because grainy, chopped up footage on Youtube only tells part of the story.

To get the full picture you either had to be there, or do some reading to compliment the pictures

Plus, most of the good stuff from back then isn't even on YouTube!

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

Dare i ask...what are they then, spaceships?



Because grainy, chopped up footage on Youtube only tells part of the story.

To get the full picture you either had to be there, or do some reading to compliment the pictures

Plus, most of the good stuff from back then isn't even on YouTube!

hahaha! too funny. and I never said that other part you replied to. just 1 question , have you (or any others that favour Group A) watched a V8 Supercar race irl?

[Samwhk]

How does this keep coming back to Grp A vs V8SC?
Adding to the rules previously posted, should we add an open class for 6000cc plus, with a heavier weight?

Also, I'm really struggling to think which car I would choose. As a bit of a traditionalist, I'd like to say a V8 Holden, but competitively? Hmmm.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

have you (or any others that favour Group A) watched a V8 Supercar race irl?

I have been to all Bathursts, and most New South Wales ATCC/AEC/V8Supercar events for more than 30 years