Looking to rally Volvo 66 - appendixes and homologation papers

[Eyebrows]

Happy Christmas season everyone,

New here and new to historic rallying. I've worked as race support for a few classic and vintage cars in the past but never raced or setup from scratch my own car so looking for advice on all the paperwork and where to start.

I'm about to take ownership of a Volvo 66DL left hand drive. I'd really like to rally it in special stages (anything loose surfaces which is where these cars shine). I was looking at maybe doing a couple of stages of the British historic rally championship and maybe potentially in the future be competitive but that won't be for a while. Are there any other rallies I should be looking at?

Anyway, I was looking at preparing the car, it's the same car as the DAF 66 but under a Volvo badge. The MSA regs for the event say the car must conform to R49 and their homologation. There is one homologation paper for this car however its group 1 (so very few modifications) but it's for the 1.3 litre model, mine is the 1.1 litre. There are also a few more homologation forms for the DAF 66 both 1.1 & 1.3 litres, group 1&2 and with modifications to the engine and other parts. Basically I know very little on how these forms work, what do they do? Can I do any modifications from any form? Is my car even compatible with them as it's technically a slightly different model (the only real differences being the front grill and the engine capacity). Carburettor wise, am I allowed to use any period carb (like a pair of Weber 40s rather than the original single solex?).

Within R49 I have to conform to appendix J, so there comes another question on whether I conform to appendix k or j? I only ask as I've just had light shed on appendix k as a separate category and no idea if it's a better option.

Basically as you can see I'm very confused on the whole matter and would love some help on where to go with it all! Should I possibly look for a different chassis (there's a chance I may be able to get hold of a DAF marathon which the homologation papers would apply to exactly and has more racing history). Or would there be no point doing this?

I would also like to do other events in the future so no idea what to work towards. Whether this is a good starting point or whether I'm better off looking for a 1300 model?

I hope someone can help shed some light on all this for me please. Sorry for long and confused sounding post I'm afraid I am just that - confused where to start!

Merry Christmas all

[Gerard C]

Sorry, it won't fully answer your question, I'd go for the Marathon you've detailed. Or better a 343 with the full R kit (Grp2 i think). Ugly but fast. Bearing in mind that when you drive it you can't see it…
If you're interested in Marathon consider a search with Frenchman Claude Laurent he was a renowned specialist of what we call " la voiture Ã* bretelles" referring to the belt drive. Merry Christmas.

[Eyebrows]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Sorry, it won't fully answer your question, I'd go for the Marathon you've detailed. Or better a 343 with the full R kit (Grp2 i think). Ugly but fast. Bearing in mind that when you drive it you can't see it… Merry Christmas.

The marathon is not necessarily a certainty, it's just a slight possibility. Could I ask the reason why please? Would it just be a lot more eligible. It's a shame because they're the same car with different badges on!

[Gerard C]

Totally right of course. Yes sometimes its just a matter of front end gril or decals set to change the things. Those are available or can be reproduced. An example? The Grp2 2600 RS Capri Ripolin driven by Yves Scemama belongs to the front running batch in HTC series by PA. Originally was a 1300 XL.
To go further in your quest-ion, you dont have to choose between two appendixes, K or J, you must comply with both so K and J. Plus your homologation form, plus proof of what was legally used in period. It sounds as a hassle but is not.
Apart from this I find the choice of a DAF a good and original one. Just my opinion.

[Eyebrows]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Totally right of course. Yes sometimes its just a matter of front end gril or decals set to change the things. Those are available or can be reproduced. An example? The Grp2 2600 RS Capri Ripolin driven by Yves Scemama belongs to the front running batch in HTC series by PA. Originally was a 1300 XL.
To go further in your quest-ion, you dont have to choose between two appendixes, K or J, you must comply with both so K and J. Plus your homologation form, plus proof of what was legally used in period. It sounds as a hassle but is not.
Apart from this I find the choice of a DAF a good and original one. Just my opinion.

Thanks very much for the reply.

With regards to conforming, I have looked at appendix J and it seems like your usual safety and general stuff. I haven't properly looked through K, I didn't realise they went hand in hand so I'll have to read through K and understand it. With regards to the homologation form, how do I have to comply to it? Just prove its the same car? Does it matter that the only homologation I can find is for a group 1 car for a Volvo 1300 gl?

For period modifications are there any particular methods of proving them period or just search for photos, cars taking part in events or the parts on another car?

With regards to the choice of car, I think it will be the Volvo. The marathon is unlikely and its condition not good, the Volvo's really quite good.

Sorry for so many questions, trying to get my head around all this! Merry Christmas all

[Gerard C]

You car must comply with its homologation form, basically or partially or totally. Appendix K is above everything, including mistakes of course, you must stick to the safety requirements and all the things about Voitures de Tourisme de Série. Appendix J, you must select which year concerns your car and try to find interesting things. No DAF homologated or entered in an itn' race? Drop dead and go Volvo!
Then comes the period correct or period proof thingy. Interesting but risky.

You'll quickly learn why you've better wear a helmet prior to racing! By the way, in your region, how is going the half potato market?

PS The last two are genuine poor jokes, nothing against you, its obvious. Historic racing is a matter of celebration and I can't see why we could celebrate our elders other than making fun with passion…
IMHO and BIMBO! Cheers!

[Tel 911S]

It is very daunting at first to try to find out what is allowed .
But if you go through it bit by bit , & ask a lot of other people , then it can all be done .
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...18_group_1.pdf
That link should get you a copy of the 66 Gp 1 Homologation papers .[ Note , this is a free copy & you should actually have a bought one " non watermarked " to use on events ] .


You also need to read up FIA app K , [ historic regs ]. Which , along with App J of the correct period , will tell you what was allowed for that time .
The Gp 1 Homologation papers only give the original factory specification , but a lot more modifications were allowed under Gp 2 rules of the time .

You also need to know what events you will be doing , because not all countries , series , & individual events run to FIA historic rules , & some have their own variations on them .


That should get you started on some reading up on what to do before you even start on preparing the car .

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...80_group_1.pdf
This should be the Daf 66 ,

[Gerard C]

Well done Tel! This gives me courage to tell Eyebrows that we have the once world class second to none best of all Daf specialists here:
http://simonhadfieldmotorsport.com
He knows "things" about regulations too…

[Tel 911S]

http://files.freethought.website/fre...ations2018.pdf

I did notice that you said the UK Historic rallies , so here is a link for the current championship rules .
A bit more reading to do .
http://files.freethought.website/fre...ations2018.pdf

[Eyebrows]

Merry Christmas all, thank you very much for all that useful info. Did have a good couple of giggles at those replies.

Looks like I need to go read appendix k but that shouldn't be a problem.

So far I have 3 or 4 copies of DAF 66 homologation papers and 1 copy of a Volvo 66 1300. My main question was which of these applies to my Volvo 66 1.1 litre, can I increase the engine size, change the grill and call it a 1300? Or is it fine as it is and because they're basically the same car would they all count?

Some of the DAF homologation papers are group 2, showing cylinder head upgrades etc. Could I do these upgrades on my Volvo or would I have a difficulties getting it accepted?

I'd like to do UK historic rallies, in particular I was thinking the BHRC which has the rules Tel linked to in that last post. Is this a good place to start with a decent car to start with or do I need to do some rethinking? I would also like to occasionally do some other rallies (the current owner of this daf has done the Monte Carlo rally a couple of times in his other dafs). I won't be able to afford this rally yet but in future I would love to do similar things and didn't want to be held back by the particular model (despite the fact it's exactly the same less a few stickers and a different grill).

Thanks for the tip off r.e. Simon Hadfield, might try give him a call in the new year.

Cheers for all the help, really appreciate it

[Gerard C]

Thanks for the tip off r.e. Simon Hadfield, might try give him a call in the new year. The sooner, the better… He does now what he's talking about.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Eyebrows

Looks like I need to go read appendix k but that shouldn't be a problem.

So far I have 3 or 4 copies of DAF 66 homologation papers and 1 copy of a Volvo 66 1300. My main question was which of these applies to my Volvo 66 1.1 litre, can I increase the engine size, change the grill and call it a 1300? Or is it fine as it is and because they're basically the same car would they all count?

Some of the DAF homologation papers are group 2, showing cylinder head upgrades etc. Could I do these upgrades on my Volvo or would I have a difficulties getting it accepted?

Welcome to the forum, Eyebrows! You’ve already had some good advice, so not much more I can add, but will try and answer the above.

If the Volvo homologation papers don’t show the extra tuning parts, then my understanding is that they can’t be used if you are trying to be FiA compliant. I don’t know how historic rallying approaches such questions, however.

As you’ve already discovered, there don’t appear to be any homologation papers for an 1100cc Volvo 66. Doesn’t mean the model can’t be used, but proof of original spec would be needed by other means. Again, unless rallying is different, you can turn your car into a 1.3 GL as it is the current spec that matters, not how it left the factory. As Gerard mentions earlier, an awful lot of cars being raced and rallied nowadays are built up from original base models!

Mike

[Tel 911S]

Have now had a bit more spare time , so have looked through some of the details .

The class structure on Historic rallies has [ Usually ] no separate Gp N class , & capacity classes are up to 1300cc etc .
So it would be best to enter as 1300 Gp 2 .

Your Volvo 1100 has not got Homologation , so one possibility might be to Badge it as a DAF , you could then enter on the 1100 Gp 2 papers .
The 1100 Gordini engines could be made to go very well , but with steel cranks & lots of other engine work would be very expensive .

Another alternative would be to call your Volvo a 1300 , [ or even try to find a 1300 Renault engine ] , and then modify to what is allowed under Gp 2 regs in App J in period .
Gp 2 Homologation papers are only the Gp 1 papers with some additional comp parts shown . Under App J a lot of things are " FREE" [ do not need to be Homologated ], such as Cams , Manifolds ,Carbs , Exhausts etc .

So I think your best way might be to enter as a Volvo 66 1300cc Gp 2 .
You could check with John Cooper , [ listed in the Championship regs I posted ] , but I believe that you can use the Gp 1 Homologation papers as the car specification , & then App J Gp 2 modification rules to lift the car into Gp 2 .

I don,t think a single Solex carbed engine, [as Gp 1 Spec ] is going to be quick enough .

And have a word with Simon Hadfield about what works best with those engines

[Mike Bell]

Tel, sounds like historic rallying is different to FiA racing? For the latter, if I want to fit something that was ‘free’ in period Gp2 (Let’s say a different exhaust manifold), I still have to prove that the part was actually used on a car in that period?

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Tel, sounds like historic rallying is different to FiA racing? For the latter, if I want to fit something that was ‘free’ in period Gp2 (Let’s say a different exhaust manifold), I still have to prove that the part was actually used on a car in that period?

That is part of the problem .
If the type of part is obviously not of the period , [ modern electronics , 3 way adjustable units etc ] , then it should not be used .

But a lot of it comes down to common sense of the eligibility scrutineers .
It can be very difficult to actually prove use in period , & if the scrutes want to be bl**dy minded about it , you have to actually prove use on an International event .
But fitting things like a set of sidedraught 40 DCOEs , was very common back then , & any sensible scrute should say , " Yes , thats all right for Gp 2 ".
And as for an exhaust manifold , it would be nearly impossible to prove it was exact the same shape & material as used back 40 years ago , so some common sense must apply .

[Mike Bell]

From memory it’s when applying for a Historic Technical Passport that questions start to get asked. If you don’t need one then all the better!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

From memory it’s when applying for a Historic Technical Passport that questions start to get asked. If you don’t need one then all the better!

Yes , the HTP can be a problem if you get the wrong scrutineer .

For most rallying a Historic Rally Vehicle Identity Form is the one to use .
But it still requires some common sense from both parties .

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

For most rallying a Historic Rally Vehicle Identity Form is the one to use .
But it still requires some common sense from both parties .

Woozat??

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Woozat??

https://www.motorsportuk.org/assets/hrvifguidelines.pdf

That be one of these.

[Eyebrows]

Wow, thank you very much for all that information and taking all that time to look into the regs and in particular the details of my Volvo.

I think my best bet will be to retrim my Volvo as a 1300 and call it that. I'll leave the 1100 in it for now and with time go about building a decent 1300 engine. Could I call it a 1300 with an 1100 engine in it or do I need that 1.3 litre engine? (I realise it's not going to be easy with an 1100 in it!). I'll have a chat with Simon Hadfield with what to build.

Could it really be badged as a DAF? DAF stopped producing them in about 75 when the company was taken over by Volvo. So theoretically you can't have a 1978 DAF if that makes sense?

It would be nice to know that in the future I could use it in FIA sanctioned events in the future. But I guess it's not worth thinking about and to be honest I don't really know which historic rallies are FIA regs. It would be nice to do the East African Safari Rally at some point in the future as my grandfather did it in the late 60s a few times. But that would be a long way off and I have no idea what the rules are.

Just a thought regarding exhaust manifolds, if you use the same materials and methods to make a manifold (stainless steel and welding was certainly around in the 70s!). Could I make my own to any sensible shape or would that not be allowed?

[Gerard C]

All your questions make sense but could set fire to the forum at some point. Wanna bet with me? You can start with the 1100 if both versions are perfectly identical, in and out. This is a new kind of bent car, the displacement being smaller! The 1300 is rather easy to modify, all the good parts/tricks and suppliers are known. If you go for a category where the manifold is free, go for it. If not, it must look like the picture on the form, including ID if specified.
To start you've better study appendix K drawings about ROP's, nobody will accept anything different anywhere on earth. Or you can go for a recognized supplier, may be Custom Cages or Safety Devices. In this case, take care because some have a slight tendency to weld the cage to you car forgetting that you have to put the dashboard back afterwards! Or the headlining… Or the seats…
Even if you dont apply at the moment (why would you?) if you're looking for entries in any FIA event, the HTP is mandatory. Always. Specially when this instance is the organiser. Choosing the right route will save money and time.

[Gerard C]

Dont make a confusion between V5 and HTP. If you present a fully compliant DAF you always can "adjust" the chassis plates…*Remember the example of the Weslake Capri Ripolin?

[Eyebrows]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

All your questions make sense but could set fire to the forum at some point. Wanna bet with me? You can start with the 1100 if both versions are perfectly identical, in and out. This is a new kind of bent car, the displacement being smaller! The 1300 is rather easy to modify, all the good parts/tricks and suppliers are known. If you go for a category where the manifold is free, go for it. If not, it must look like the picture on the form, including ID if specified.
To start you've better study appendix K drawings about ROP's, nobody will accept anything different anywhere on earth. Or you can go for a recognized supplier, may be Custom Cages or Safety Devices. In this case, take care because some have a slight tendency to weld the cage to you car forgetting that you have to put the dashboard back afterwards! Or the headlining… Or the seats…
Even if you dont apply at the moment (why would you?) if you're looking for entries in any FIA event, the HTP is mandatory. Always. Specially when this instance is the organiser. Choosing the right route will save money and time.

Yep, I understand what you mean, think I might have put my foot in it!

Would I even be able to get an HTP with my chassis? It's not necessarily a problem if not, more important to get started in the sport rather than panicking over minor things. I'd more just like to know.

[Eyebrows]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Dont make a confusion between V5 and HTP. If you present a fully compliant DAF you always can "adjust" the chassis plates…*Remember the example of the Weslake Capri Ripolin?

I think yes I am a little confusing the two! Being worried about how much I can change of a v5 and how much of the v5 affects the HTP. My point being, if I start off with this Volvo rather than a more authentic gap, have i shot myself in the foot and limited myself or would I still be fine?

[Gerard C]

Another good question. May be you can try to find out if any HTP was issued for such a DAF or Volvo before. The list is not secret, offered as free consultation by the FIA. If you're interested in, what you're looking for is under pdf format, FIA valid-htp-list
I can't remember how I managed to get it, may be Tel can help again. Please?
Thanks for not mentioning "my" English!
Might be this one
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...htp_list_1.pdf