Slip Sliding Away..

[Airhead]

Like the rest of you I sat glued to the TV and watched the German GP. But wait, something strange was happening.

Did you notice that the BAR's, Alesi in the Prost and particularly DC in the McLaren were all oversteering out of slow corners. Panis even took this to the extreme of a sideways entry to the pits while traversing the lead in road.

I realise that you could not run traction control if you so wished, by why would you want the oversteer? This was DC's major complaint, he was slow because of oversteer. So to my question, if you ran traction control why do you have power oversteer?

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

Good question e ven if its you Moff.

How about this then?

Hockenhiem is a fast circuit. To get the best from the car you have to run it low (extra downforce). That means that the rear supension has to be stiff. I mean really stiff. I mean so stiff that it looks like a stiff thing in a bucket of stiff stuff? (You get the picture).

Ergo the tyres are providing the majority of suspension movement and they tend to bounce around. TC will probably find this a bit difficult to cope with.

Anyway, that's my theory.

[Speed]

Check this out, Moff...

From: www.f1i.com
Time for celebration? Not for Juan. The Colombian 2001 rookie apparently just got bored. According to The Sunday Times, Montoya wanted to spice things up a little. So, when racing around Hockenheim at over 242kph he got on the radio to the team and asked for traction control to be switched off so he could have some fun.

"Can you imagine it?" chuckled Frank Williams. "The likes of you and I would be blown away by 800 horsepower, yet here was Juan asking for more and saying the car felt slow."

Juan's reasoning? He said: "It's boring out there! I wanted to throw the car around a little!".

[marcus]

just because the cars were slidng around doesnt actually mean it was wheelspin....i think i understood peter's explaination..but basically the rear of the car is stiff and they ran very little downforce that gravity basically takes over and slides the rear of a car ..kind of a 4 wheel drift if you like ..but without the front going as well...sounds good to me anyway

[Airhead]

OK, so it was lateral forces that caused the cars the slide rather than wheel spin. Sure did look like wheel spin though, especially with DC as it was evident on the exit of the corner. But...

[Alan Jones]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Hmm,





I mean so stiff that it looks like a stiff thing in a bucket of stiff stuff? (You get the picture).


Anyway, that's my theory.

I couldn't have said it any better myself Pete

[Bononi]

I guess Peter is right.

But then again, what Speed mentioned amazes me... 'cause I thought (ad I saw) that JPM was smoother than usual. So with no TC he was faster and smoother ?

[mac]

I did notice on one of the super slo-mo thingys that DC was oversteering, but I thought that this may have been due to his heavy use of the kerbs. This would support Peter's theory, and as the inside rear (driving) tyre became unloaded (or even airborne), the back would step out.

[BD]

As has been said many times before; traction control cannot override the laws of physics. If there are too many lateral g's on the rear, and not enough grip from the tires, there will be oversteer. TC only helps drivers more easily reach the limit, but when pushed over the limit TC cannot prevent oversteer.
Also, they could have been oversteering when the driver removed his foot from the throttle. Ever drive a BMW? Lift-throttle oversteer. TC works by cutting power from the engine. So if there was no throttle input, the TC can do nothing.
If TC could involve the brakes, like in some road cars, then lift-throttle oversteer could be tamed. But of course this is not allowed.

[Airhead]

Yep,

I can follow the above points (and thanks for the info people) - there is also another thing that came to me today. Hockenheim is a low down force track and this lack of down force would add to the lateral loads in corners wouldn't it.

[GanjaGrizz]

Originally posted by Speed


"Can you imagine it?" chuckled Frank Williams. "The likes of you and I would be blown away by 800 horsepower, yet here was Juan asking for more and saying the car felt slow."

Juan's reasoning? He said: "It's boring out there! I wanted to throw the car around a little!".

That would explain why he blows his engines so quick.

I doubt its the 30 seconds he spent in the pits that did it....

[Speed]

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
That would explain why he blows his engines so quick.

Well, I believe more in Patrick Head and Mario Thiessen statements(don't you GanjaGrizz ?)..., and they said it wasn't JPM's fault.

[GanjaGrizz]

He was blowing engines every other week in CART while Vasser was finishing his races, In F1 he blows his engines and Ralf finishes.
Hey it could be that this time it wasnt his fault but dont you find it strange that it only happens to him??? and so often?
Hey I like drivers that always go all out but not at the cost of never finishing.
I like Montoya , i would even say very much so , i loved the way he passes Schumi with such ease and is not afraid to shove him aside. But in my opinion he overtaxes his engines but that doesn't mean I dont like him.

As for if I belive in what Patrick Head and Mario Thiessen say, no i dont not all the time anyways. They say what Frank tells them to say.

[bella]

he probably does tax is machinery more, but i'm inclined to go against ralf. he's being too smug, and trying to be crafty whilst not doing a very good job of it.

the same kind of slidy thing was happening in the f3000, although a couple of drivers put that down to really hot tyres.

[Speed]

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
As for if I belive in what Patrick Head and Mario Thiessen say, no i dont not all the time anyways.

Not all the time !, How do you pick True statements and False statements from them, depending on what ? How do you know ???.

In addition, do you know what is the most engine-demanding race at CART ?,,, the 500 mile Oval. Check this out:

1999
Michigan - 2nd
Fontana - 3rd

2000
Indiananpolis - 1st (not in CART calendar, but 500 also...)
Michigan - 1st
Fontana - DNF

[GanjaGrizz]

Originally posted by Speed
Not all the time !, How do you pick True statements and False statements from them, depending on what ? How do you know ???.

In addition, do you know what is the most engine-demanding race at CART ?,,, the 500 mile Oval. Check this out:

1999
Michigan - 2nd
Fontana - 3rd

2000
Indiananpolis - 1st (not in CART calendar, but 500 also...)
Michigan - 1st
Fontana - DNF

wow so he finished four 500 mile races , whats your point? , that he doesnt overtax his engine? Dont you know thats its easier on a motor when you only shift and brake when you Pit?? a Superspeedway doesnt make you gun it at chicanes does it? I never seen someone outbrake another at a superspeedway, and then floor the engine coming out.

So I dont bye your comparision with a Superspeedway. How did he do on Road circuits (engines blown i mean)?

And to answer your first 3 questions on Head. Do you believe everything everyone says?Did you believe Ross Brawn and Jean Todt when they said they weren't useing Traction Control? or when Schumi said he didnt see Jacques , did you believe him? F1 is extremely secret and everyone tells white lies, .

[BBKing]

GranjaGrizz I think little bro has as many engine failures as Montoya. That is if are going to believe what we have seen so far...LOL

Silverstone being an example of how driving a BMW slowly still has the same effect than driving it fast. They are not reliable yet. Next year we will see the real picture. For now lets agree that he is outdoing little bro in the tracks he has some experience and little bro is cracking under pressure

[GanjaGrizz]

BBKing

Believe me I never said Little bro was better.
I would take Montoya before Ralf any day of the week.
Did you see the way he just left little bro behind...
These were the same arguements when Gilles was driving, how many times have we seen that Ferrari never come back to the pits...lol

Like Gilles said
"how do you know the limits of your car if you never surpass them"

[Redneck]

I have another theory...

Have you guys watched some of the young guns that are roadracing motorcycles these days? They will "back it in" with what amounts to tremendous oversteer going into a corner. Makes my seat pucker just watchin' them. But they somehow make it through some turns quicker. The bike is starting to be pointed in the right direction by the time they get to the apex. Besides, it intimidates the he!! out of the guy you are passing!

It seems a little far-fetched with 800hp but I could almost see JPM giving it a try just to see what happens.

[Speed]

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
wow so he finished four 500 mile races , whats your point? , that he doesnt overtax his engine?

4/5 -> and yes, you're right.

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
Dont you know thats its easier

Oh my God..., we're not talking here about suspensions, brakes, etc., we're talking about engines at full-throttle, aren't we ?.

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
Did you believe Ross Brawn and Jean Todt when they said they weren't useing Traction Control?

Do you have proofs?, do you know the innocence, presumption of ?

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
or when Schumi said he didnt see Jacques , did you believe him?

No.

This will be a never-ending story, so we better cut this here...


PS: About "Montoya's over Ralf" comments, totally agree !

[GanjaGrizz]

Speed , why stop it , where having a good debate..
Good points on both sides.

Oh my God..., we're not talking here about suspensions, brakes, etc., we're talking about engines at full-throttle, aren't we ?.posted by Speed


Remember they have a pop up valve to warn them when the motor is overtaxed, you hear a little hiss before it pops, so you can ease the trottle a bit....

[Airhead]

Originally posted by GanjaGrizz
Speed , why stop it , where having a good debate..
Good points on both sides.

Oh my God..., we're not talking here about suspensions, brakes, etc., we're talking about engines at full-throttle, aren't we ?.posted by Speed


Remember they have a pop up valve to warn them when the motor is overtaxed, you hear a little hiss before it pops, so you can ease the trottle a bit....

Pop off valves, like wrong formula dude.

How about why cars with traction control slide round corners?

[Kenny W.]

Ross Braun Quote from ITV-F1

Speaking at the team's test track at Fiorano Brawn also revealed some of the secrets of setting up the cars with traction control. Contrary to what might be expected the systems have a degree of wheelspin built in according to driver preference.

"The drivers like a certain amount of rear-wheel slip to balance the throttle and balance the car through the corner," says Brawn. "There’s a lot of setting-up work to do."

[Nicholas]

This probably got a lot of posts last year, so I don't think this deserves a new thread, so while we are on the topic of TC: Which team do you think was using TC illegally, bearing in mind Mad Max's comments that he knew it was a mid-grid team?

[Epsilon]

Originally posted by nicholaswhite
This probably got a lot of posts last year, so I don't think this deserves a new thread, so while we are on the topic of TC: Which team do you think was using TC illegally, bearing in mind Mad Max's comments that he knew it was a mid-grid team?

I would guess it was Jordan. Assuming they did it right, their huge advance in the standings could probably be attributed to TC, and then when they realized somebody knew about it, they shut it off, causing all sorts of problems.