FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[Scooter185]

even if they removed paddles, the cars would still run sequential gearboxes and just have shifters like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhdzwutjHPA

[Kid Roberts]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

even if they removed paddles, the cars would still run sequential gearboxes and just have shifters like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhdzwutjHPA

That's fine. At least they have to do something.

[TF110]

How often do you see in car action? Sparingly throughout the race. Watching someone shift is cool, but racing is more than how they change gears.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

That's fine. At least they have to do something.

I don't see much difference other than he has to move his hand off the wheel.

[Kid Roberts]

Originally Posted by TF110

How often do you see in car action? Sparingly throughout the race. Watching someone shift is cool, but racing is more than how they change gears.

It's not about what I see...It's about what the drivers have to do. I feel the same about KERS and such.


(Sorry...I didn't mean to start anything)

[MitchZ06]

So you'd be happier knowing they have to use a stick even if you can't see it? I don't see the point....

[Kid Roberts]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

So you'd be happier knowing they have to use a stick even if you can't see it? I don't see the point....

Using an h-pattern takes skill.

[TF110]

Driving one of these cars takes skill! This is off topic anyway.

[Maelochs]

Using an H-pattern doesn't take much skill---I do it every time I drive, and I have about zero skill.

There is no kind of race car that is easy to drive. Trying to make cars harder to drive just makes them slower, and then people complain about that.

Technology--in their quest to shave tenths of seconds off lap times, engineers came up with the things like the double-clutch transmission, paddle shifters, automatic rev-matching for downshifts ... Now we are saying, "Screw the technology, driving is too easy now." I guess we all love NASCAR.

Except no kind of competition driving is easy, not NASCAR, not sprint cars where there is no transmission, not driving endurance racers with paddle shifters.

It is more Allotment of skill. If a driver doesn't have to spend so much time trying to expertly heel-toe on every downshift, he or she can spend more time pushing the longitudinal limit of adhesion with the brakes and the lateral limit with cornering, and the combined limit while accelerating out of the corner

Hey, if we want driving to be difficult, we can demand that drivers recite poetry as they downshift, or describe the laps in sign-language as they drive. Thing is none of that makes cars faster, which is what thew fans seem to want and which is definitely what the engineers want (faster=more likely to win.)

Seeing as we never see drivers shifting anyway, I don't see where we lose anything as spectators---drivers can corner fractionally faster, that's all we see.

Look where this thread started---people didn't know who was using paddles and who wasn't. That seems to say it all right there.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by joeb

Why ditch paddles if that is what production cars come with?

Agreed

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

They should ditch them in production cars too.

Thats like saying lets ditch disc brakes because drums are more exciting.

I have owned cars with paddles, auto and manual and whilst I often prefer manual when I want to drive for fun, paddles definitely have their place. A modern high performance sportscar with a fully controllable 'robotised manual gearbox' in a joy to drive and a far quicker shift than any human could achieve (which would be why they use them on racecars).... I am not talking about the silly paddles they put on some cars to control their auto boxes - which are a waste of time imo

[Kid Roberts]

Sorry...I didn't mean to start a war. I just don't like paddles and I never will.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

Sorry...I didn't mean to start a war. I just don't like paddles and I never will.

What if you find yourself in a canoe? What are you going to do then

Seriously-I got no problem with paddles, its already in a lot of GT cars and it hasnt drastically changed the face of GT racing so IMHO its not to the detriment of the sport.

[Kid Roberts]

I'm trying to force myself to like the new technology. I don't think I ever will, but I can appreciate good racing. I really enjoy the GT3 series and such.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

Sorry...I didn't mean to start a war. I just don't like paddles and I never will.

Have you driven a proper paddle shift car (not a imitation tiptronic auto box) ... and by that I mean driven it for several hundred miles?

[Kid Roberts]

Originally Posted by Mal

Have you driven a proper paddle shift car (not a imitation tiptronic auto box) ... and by that I mean driven it for several hundred miles?

No, but I should be soon.


(Let's just stop. Neither of us will be swayed.)

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

No, but I should be soon.


(Let's just stop. Neither of us will be swayed.)

I wont say any more - except I don't see how you can properly judge in such strong terms if you haven't experienced it - unless you believe what Clarkson says!

Once you have driven a paddle shift for a lot of miles it becomes second nature just like a manual does and there is still a skill because if you get the throttle control wrong it either jerks or loses time. If you get it right there is a virtually seamless almost instantaneous shift. It is a great but different driving experience.

With regard to sportscar racing - if you believe that sportscar racing should be technology based then you have to allow such development otherwise you end up a spec series based on old technology just like NASCAR.

Presumably at some stage we will see a completely seamless constantly variable transmission ....

[Kid Roberts]

I'm not a technical person. I can't tell you all of that stuff. Maybe that's why I'm such a big fan of historic racing? I won't stop watching racing because of this stuff. I just don't like it.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

It is more Allotment of skill. If a driver doesn't have to spend so much time trying to expertly heel-toe on every downshift, he or she can spend more time pushing the longitudinal limit of adhesion with the brakes and the lateral limit with cornering, and the combined limit while accelerating out of the corner

That's an interesting theory.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

Sorry...I didn't mean to start a war. I just don't like paddles and I never will.

I know other people who don't like paddles and that's a perfectly ok opinion to have, but removing paddles doesn't mean H gates will come back. Unless you want to ban dual clutch and sequential boxes which would be a back. The third pedal is obsolete.

[Pandamasque]

IMO, the onboards from cars with even sequential stick-operated boxes are much more entertaining to watch! The audience likes to the see the drivers work. That's why motor racing series have limitations on various assists, AWD etc.

Originally Posted by rich07

What if you find yourself in a canoe? What are you going to do then

If the water is not too deep, one can propell the canoe with a long stick Couldn't resist.

[Mike Hedlund]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on the shifting discussion as I've raced and driven H-patterns, lever and paddle activated sequentials w/ and w/o clutches, and street based dual clutch paddle boxes (no clutch pedal).

IMO, there's no lap time benefit between any of them after you move beyond an H-pattern.

With the lever activated sequentials (Porsche Cup for example), I typically use the clutch and manually heal-toe on all downshifts as I've been told it's nominally easier on the box than clutchless downshifts. The downshift technique for any racer is ingrained in muscle memory and takes absolutely no thought.

With the paddle activated sequentials, the benefit is not having to use the clutch on downshifts and the car either mechanically or electronically auto-blipping. There is no performance benefit, and to be bluntly honest, most of the blips are compromises and not as exact as if you were doing it yourself.. but it is less work. Less work slightly reduces fatigue and slightly reduces the risk for mistakes (even if it's in muscle memory, the more stuff you do the more chance you have to screw it up.. eventually). However, you still use the clutch for starting/stopping the car.

The paddle sequentials are also nice in certain situations as you can shift without moving your hands from the wheel, but that's not always the case. For example, in the ESM Rolex 458 we have the stock/street paddle shift levers that're actually mounted on the steering column.. not the wheel. So coming out of corners there's times were you want to upshift but it's hard when you're all crossed up and can't find the paddle. I'd actually prefer the lever based sequential in this scenario. There's a mod you can buy from Ferrari that moves the levers to the wheel which fixes the problem, but it's like $25k or something...

The street based dual-clutch boxes are ok on the track. It's nice not having to deal with a clutch at pit stops or when idling through the paddock.. but they shift slower than the pure race boxes.

Here's a lap of Laguna in my Porsche Cup w/ a race gear box using lever & clutch w/ manual blips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBfygjrIr8U

and Here's a lap of Laguna in the Rolex 458 w/ a race gear box using paddles w/o clutch/blips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiAM1Da404Y

-mike

[Kid Roberts]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on the shifting discussion as I've raced and driven H-patterns, lever and paddle activated sequentials w/ and w/o clutches, and street based dual clutch paddle boxes (no clutch pedal).

IMO, there's no lap time benefit between any of them after you move beyond an H-pattern.

With the lever activated sequentials (Porsche Cup for example), I typically use the clutch and manually heal-toe on all downshifts as I've been told it's nominally easier on the box than clutchless downshifts. The downshift technique for any racer is ingrained in muscle memory and takes absolutely no thought.

With the paddle activated sequentials, the benefit is not having to use the clutch on downshifts and the car either mechanically or electronically auto-blipping. There is no performance benefit, and to be bluntly honest, most of the blips are compromises and not as exact as if you were doing it yourself.. but it is less work. Less work slightly reduces fatigue and slightly reduces the risk for mistakes (even if it's in muscle memory, the more stuff you do the more chance you have to screw it up.. eventually). However, you still use the clutch for starting/stopping the car.

The paddle sequentials are also nice in certain situations as you can shift without moving your hands from the wheel, but that's not always the case. For example, in the ESM Rolex 458 we have the stock/street paddle shift levers that're actually mounted on the steering column.. not the wheel. So coming out of corners there's times were you want to upshift but it's hard when you're all crossed up and can't find the paddle. I'd actually prefer the lever based sequential in this scenario. There's a mod you can buy from Ferrari that moves the levers to the wheel which fixes the problem, but it's like $25k or something...

The street based dual-clutch boxes are ok on the track. It's nice not having to deal with a clutch at pit stops or when idling through the paddock.. but they shift slower than the pure race boxes.

Here's a lap of Laguna in my Porsche Cup w/ a race gear box using lever & clutch w/ manual blips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBfygjrIr8U

and Here's a lap of Laguna in the Rolex 458 w/ a race gear box using paddles w/o clutch/blips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiAM1Da404Y

-mike

Thanks for the info! I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking for people. Just a personal opinion.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Kid Roberts

Thanks for the info! I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking for people. Just a personal opinion.

No worries, me too! :-)

-mike

[Livininthinair]

Thanks for the real world perspective Mike. I have always been a manual transmission guy but realize the race track is much different than the rat race of everyday driving. Before too much longer we will all be telling our grandchildren about the days when you had to shift the gears yourself. I work for Audi/Porsche/VW and was not happy to see the last of the manual transmission "S" cars from Audi - robotized transmissions are not my cup of tea, the PDK is nice but still not my thing...