Formula Ford 2012 - Page 6

ivanalesi · 21 Sep 2012, 15:07 (Ref:3139664)

I think it will be fair to point in this thread that as recently as 2010, FFord was still able to produce good a racer! Speaking of Tio Ellinas who just landed the F1 test for Manor as their best GP3 driver and played Santa Claus for Mitch Evans at Monza

Deemun · 21 Sep 2012, 16:35 (Ref:3139679)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

I think it will be fair to point in this thread that as recently as 2010, FFord was still able to produce good a racer! Speaking of Tio Ellinas who just landed the F1 test for Manor as their best GP3 driver and played Santa Claus for Mitch Evans at Monza

I don't disagree with you Ivan, Tio has done well but don't forget that Scott Malvern beat him in the championship in 2010 in what was considered by many to be an inferior car and with a team that were returning to the series after 4 years away so their data and knowledge was limited to say the least.

When Scott moved over Jamun and drove the all conquering Mygale chassis in 2011 he pretty much wiped the floor with the competition.

I've no doubt that he could emulate what Tio is doing if he were given a chance in GP3

ivanalesi · 21 Sep 2012, 16:55 (Ref:3139682)

Yeah, but this season I think the budgets won't go as low as last season with the new car. F2 will surely have some exciting talent and it can be great preparation for a bang on the winning pace GP3 season

It will be interesting to see him in winter testing with the old car as it probably won't be oversubscribed, surely he must do well as he has more experience in downforce cars.

Deemun · 2 Oct 2012, 07:23 (Ref:3145042)

Mike Norton of Ford said at the weekend at Donington in his closing remarks for the 2012 Dunlop MSA Formula Ford Championship to expect a big announcement around the 15th of this month regarding the future of the championship.

Could this be the predicted addition of aero to the ECOboost cars from 2013 & the championship moving from the F3/GT (SRO) package to the BTTC (TOCA) package?

The SpeCTator · 2 Oct 2012, 07:29 (Ref:3145043)

[QUOTE=Deemun;3145042]Mike Norton of Ford said at the weekend at Donington in his closing remarks for the 2012 Dunlop MSA Formula Ford Championship to expect a big announcement around the 15th of this month regarding the future of the championship.

Could this be the predicted addition of aero to the ECOboost cars from 2013 & the championship moving from the F3/GT (SRO) package to the BTTC (TOCA) package?[/QUOTE

Another 12 car grid for the TOCA package

markreeves · 5 Oct 2012, 11:13 (Ref:3146548)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deemun

Could this be the predicted addition of aero to the ECOboost cars from 2013 & the championship moving from the F3/GT (SRO) package to the BTTC (TOCA) package?

I dont understand the adition of the aero, FF is the stepping stone between karting & Winged formula categories, which no doubt will mean another championship will be created to take its place therfore another champ with low grids, Classic example of introducing a new car which wasnt needed.

Also putting wings on the FF cars will surely make them be competing with F4, GP3, F2, intersteps, FR Barc so even slimmer grids accross the board

**bella** · 5 Oct 2012, 11:23 (Ref:3146553)

at some point though i guess they have to have a look at the car and realise that young drivers with money aren't going to be too keen on driving something that looks like the doctor prescribed it for an unfortunate illness. yes, it's shallow and vain, and yes, i agree, it puts the car into generic boring single seater with stabilisers territory, but if it'll bring in one or two more drivers... so be it.

Tim 27 · 5 Oct 2012, 12:44 (Ref:3146587)

To me there are two trains of thought here.
Is it beneficial to a driver straight out of karting to learn set up, grip levels, racecraft etc in a relatively low powered car with no wings?
If the answer is yes, then there is still a place for Formula Ford, as it has been for the last 45 years.
If that learning is not so important, and sponsorship can be more easily found putting more cars on grids simply because the car has wings, then the answer is no.
I found it hard enough to grasp when slicks were introduced, if wings are now added my beloved Formula Ford will be no more.
And if wings are added, as Bella says it will become just another "generic boring single seater with stabilisers", and leads straight back to my post in "Is Single Seater Racing *Really* In Crisis?" found here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=132830&page=7

davyboy · 5 Oct 2012, 13:42 (Ref:3146609)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim 27

To me there are two trains of thought here.
Is it beneficial to a driver straight out of karting to learn set up, grip levels, racecraft etc in a relatively low powered car with no wings?
If the answer is yes, then there is still a place for Formula Ford, as it has been for the last 45 years.
If that learning is not so important, and sponsorship can be more easily found putting more cars on grids simply because the car has wings, then the answer is no.
I found it hard enough to grasp when slicks were introduced, if wings are now added my beloved Formula Ford will be no more.
And if wings are added, as Bella says it will become just another "generic boring single seater with stabilisers", and leads straight back to my post in "Is Single Seater Racing *Really* In Crisis?" found here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=132830&page=7

I'd disappointed if the new Formula Ford melts into the plethora of wings and slicks junior single seater formulae, but I guess it's either that or it's demise. I don't think it can survive another year of what's happened in 2012.

Regarding the question of whether kart racers need a non-wings/slicks formulae as a stepping stone onto to the junior single seater ladder, I'm not so sure. In the past chassis and geometry set up, together with adapting to the feeling of weight transfer was an important skill to learn as these parameters were significant factors in single seater set-up all the way to F1. FF1600 isolated these from aero, making it an excellent training ground. However, such is the importance of aero in single seaters these days, that those skills have been significantly usurped by the need to get to grips with aero set-up. So I guess drivers are keen to get immersed in that as soon as they move from karts.

Tim 27 · 5 Oct 2012, 14:19 (Ref:3146623)

If that is the case davyboy, then better for it to stop altogether and let those thinking of joining in 2013 boost the grids of other championships at the bottom of the ladder already using slicks and wings.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see a full grid of junior single seaters rather than four championships with five cars in each, but of course the manafacturers and promoters have their own interests to look after...

**bella** · 5 Oct 2012, 14:34 (Ref:3146630)

well, quite. you would think their interests would include being marketable, realistic and having full, competitive grids, wouldn't you?

*sigh*

davyboy · 5 Oct 2012, 14:55 (Ref:3146643)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim 27

If that is the case davyboy, then better for it to stop altogether and let those thinking of joining in 2013 boost the grids of other championships at the bottom of the ladder already using slicks and wings.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see a full grid of junior single seaters rather than four championships with five cars in each, but of course the manafacturers and promoters have their own interests to look after...

Absolutely. The junior single seater environment is a total and utter mess... and what it needs like a hole in the head is yet another facsimile of the myriads of classes that are already there. For the life of me, I can't understand why the FIA doesn't sort this mess out. After all isn't it supposed to be looking after the best interests of the sport ? It's not just the junior single seater level that's a mess... karting is even worse... and the CIK/FIA seem happy to let anyone who wants to establish another 'me too' class to join the cannibalization and confusion. Bonkers !

Tim 27 · 5 Oct 2012, 15:10 (Ref:3146654)

Sadly it isn't just Formula Ford in this predicament, it is to be found all the way up the ladder.
Sorry to repeat, but this is taken from a previous post of mine highlighting the problem:
"Like many others who have posted before me, I firmly believe that too many championships lead the career drivers confused and bewildered as to which path to follow. Even with the required budget, guessing which is the best championship to choose to further that career is nigh on impossible in this day and age.
Even as a small child the ladder was easy to recognise and follow.
Start in Formula Ford, make the jump to Formula Three or maybe Atlantics (oh how I miss that championship), go on to Formula Two, if you get stuck stop off in Formula 5000, and then if you are lucky enough Formula One.
Grids were always full, as there were simply no other choices.
Manafacturer involvement was the main reason this changed over the years, creating series to promote their various brands. Organisers and governing bodies jumped at the chances, keen to promote more races at more circuits.
The downside of course is that grids became diluted. F3 was no longer a championship only held in your own country, and the European F2 championship disappeared altogether.
I know it's an impossibilty now, but if we went back to those core championships of the past, budgets, drivers, and teams would all be channelled into certain areas, creating full grids, even heats to decide who would go onto the final. Just think, the Formula Ford Festival of old, but in every championship at every round!
Single seater racing isn't in crisis, it just lacks direction, lacks clarity as to which path to choose, whether it be the F1 wannabe, or the casual fun racer."

@ Bella: What other manafacturer can boast a successful Formula that has run for 45 years, with a huge majority of the sports legends passing through it?
The BRSCC use this when promoting the Festival, it's a crying shame that Ford themselves choose to remain relatively distant and uninterested.

Tim 27 · 5 Oct 2012, 15:16 (Ref:3146657)

As we share the same views Bella and davyboy, perhaps we should set up yet another championship run to our own rules....

chris bailey · 5 Oct 2012, 15:36 (Ref:3146661)

Hmmm! Everything has probably been said about the demise of Formula Ford. The thing that made it great in its heyday was the sheer number of cars, and the fact that 95% of them turned up on the back of a trailer and were run by the driver and a couple of mates. I found an old entry list from 1977 (Brush Fusegear Silverstone). There were over 140 cars entered!! Heats, semi's and a final for just a regular round of not the most important series. The man who came out on top really had earned his win on merit.

Today, unfortunately, it's about teams and budgets and the value is appalling. Adding aero will only make it less interesting.

Someone at Ford should get really brave and re-invent it as a small-engined, spaceframe category with treaded tyres. By all means make it 21st Century by having a sequential box and some proper deformable structure in the sidepods.

If you make it affordable, the numbers will grow. When the numbers grow, the racing improves and the entry fees come down, which makes it even more affordable, so the numbers grow, etc, etc. If the numbers rise, more constructors join in, spares get cheaper (volume). Ford should lean on one of their tyre suppliers to subsidise a spec tyre, which would also help.

Ultimately, FF should be about letting the talent shine through. The way it is now, it's bordering on the pointless.

**bella** · 5 Oct 2012, 15:43 (Ref:3146665)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim 27

As we share the same views Bella and davyboy, perhaps we should set up yet another championship run to our own rules....

insert OBVIOUS comment about letting the lunatics run the asylum

brakedisc · 5 Oct 2012, 21:21 (Ref:3146809)

" letting the lunatics run the asylum "

I would suggest that they are. Heads in the sand for years. Cannot wait to see the announcement on the 15th. Too little too late.

FFmygale · 6 Oct 2012, 10:24 (Ref:3147012)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brakedisc

" letting the lunatics run the asylum "

I would suggest that they are. Heads in the sand for years. Cannot wait to see the announcement on the 15th. Too little too late.

Okay, Okay, with Formula Ford being a category I love, I've tried staying out of this completely but this last comment just tipped me over the edge!

I couldn't agree more!!

Whilst my heart tells me that FF should be without wings, unfortunately common sense tells me that it needs wings to be attractive to drivers wishing to take their first step in cars. When FF was first introduced the cars actually looked similar to F1 cars of the day, however they now look nothing like F1 cars and ultimately that is what young single seater drivers aspire to. As much as I would prefer otherwise I can see that FF probably do now need wings to survive as an attractive category.

What I don't understand is why it has taken so long for the powers that be to recognise the problem, make a decision and enact the change. Clearly they are very nice people though, as it is very considerate of them to wait until AFTER Mr Palmer has filled his own new starter level single seater category with young drivers BEFORE they announce their own plans.

ivanalesi · 6 Oct 2012, 18:11 (Ref:3147156)

I remember reading about a test between current KF1 chassis and one used by Senna, it turned out that both were very similar in speed because the KF1 is much heavier and obviously much safer. So, karting hasn't gone much quicker, but formulas have gone considerably quicker. The gap has risen so much, that current FR2.0 is probably quick enough to qualify for F1 races of the start of 80's. It's like Senna going straight into F1 from karting and it's done by 15-16 y.o. kids w/o anywhere near the same experience Senna had when he graduated to FFord. This is a msg that should be made clear to the best young drivers and FFord's demise is largely thanks to zero or old fashioned promotion and lack of image, not just questionable engine & rule changes.

JEB · 11 Oct 2012, 12:28 (Ref:3149934)

Don't forget Kent-engined FF1600 continues to flourish !!
The WHT is the world leading FF1600 event and delivers the goods time and time again !!

brakedisc · 13 Oct 2012, 18:59 (Ref:3151063)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEB

Don't forget Kent-engined FF1600 continues to flourish !!
The WHT is the world leading FF1600 event and delivers the goods time and time again !!

It does but it cannot go on for ever and the powers that be need to sort out a replacement.

BtccLee · 13 Oct 2012, 21:07 (Ref:3151125)

FFord is back on the TOCA package. I also think that reading in Autosport regarding the festival and no ECO Boost there was a lot about Ec Boost teams wanting to update their cars. Guessing this will be the mentioned slicks n wings.

deley · 15 Oct 2012, 16:05 (Ref:3152359)

Slicks & Wings - final nail in the coffin and welcome to the world of "processional racing"....

Andrew Kitson · 15 Oct 2012, 16:29 (Ref:3152378)

...and F4 is now sold out, 24 orders. But guess these teams now need to find drivers/budgets. FF will be up against it..

dank · 16 Oct 2012, 11:17 (Ref:3152787)

And this is what next year's car will look like: https://twitter.com/mundy71/status/2...426816/photo/1

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