radical sr9 vs. porsche lmp2

[DanJR1]

will the sr9 beat the porsche? ive heard none of the other lmp2s can even think of competing because the porsche has so much downforce so what chance does the sr9 stand? I know the porsche has been optimized for american tracks rather than le mans but still?

Also, couldn't someone just put the cosworth direct injection customer engine in a radical and go LMP1 racing, the competition next year is rather slim to say the least

[RonVerstegen]

The SR9 is a very fast car...I believe it has the track-record at the Nordschleife....but I don't know if it beats the Porsche LMP 2.... I think: YES!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by RonVerstegen

The SR9 is a very fast car...I believe it has the track-record at the Nordschleife....but I don't know if it beats the Porsche LMP 2.... I think: YES!

That was a road legal SR8. The SR9 will be a very different beast when it hits the track!!

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

Also, couldn't someone just put the cosworth direct injection customer engine in a radical and go LMP1 racing, the competition next year is rather slim to say the least

The competition where is looking slim?

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

The competition where is looking slim?

Japan........

[Audi R8R]

Originally Posted by RonVerstegen

The SR9 is a very fast car...I believe it has the track-record at the Nordschleife....but I don't know if it beats the Porsche LMP 2.... I think: YES!

That's impressive, seeing as how the SR9 doesn't even exist yet!

[The Badger]

I think LMP2 is looking stronger everyday . Radical , Courage C65 and possibily a newer chassis too , Porsche , Lola , possibily Honda , along with a increasing interest from mazda ..... just off the top of my head .

[ss_collins]

No the SR9 is not a very fast car - in fact currently it is not even a car - its still being built!

The SR8 was the one that broke the (road car) record at the ring.

I'd say on the face of it the Porsche (which probably costs 3 SR9's) looks to be the stronger entry being a fully integrated project. But lets not forget the SR9 has a very good bunch of guys behind it, and an established team to run it (Rollcentre).

When I say the Porsche is integrated I mean that pretty much everything on it was developed just for that car, the engine, transmission, shocks etc.. are all developed by or with Porsche specifically for that car. This makes a major difference and reduces the design compromises the likes of Lola, Courage and Dome make with thier designs. It is that bit more focussed than any other car on the market. What applications were the AER, JPX, Hewland, Pankl and other parts designed for - a broad range. This is the advantage the Porsche has, the Audi R8 has (which apparently had its tubs made in Italy by Dallara), R10, and Peugeot also has.

[jhansen]

Excellent points about the RS Sypder ss_collins. That, in my opinion, is why a fully integrated car is always an attractive option. When you compare say the Audi R8 to other cars from that period you can see the difference. The attention to detail on the manufacturer developed cars is much stronger. I can see the RS Spyder being a very successful customer program for these reasons.

Maybe the smaller outfits like Lola, Radical and Courage should be a bit more bold. Design a more complete car. I understand that a car design that allows flexibility is attractive, but surely an integrated design is also attractive?

[ss_collins]

Lola and Courage do noyt have the ability to make a truly integrated car, but perhaps a one engine car is possible - it would be less compromised than a multi engine chassis. However to go truly integrated you need to develop your own engine and work closely with the 'box manufacturer as Porsche have done. Interestingly Radical do have the capability to build a truly integrated car with a Macroblock V8 the original engine choice of SR9.

[JAG]

Who's to say the Lola isn't as quick as the Porsche?

If the Lola was run by Newman Hass, with Michlein tyres, and two professional drivers I can't see it being much slower.

Put the Porsche in the hands of a small, inexperienced team, with pay drivers, and watch them trail behind the Lolas and Radicals.

The C65 shouldn't really be compared as its now a two year old hybrid.

[ss_collins]

I mean the C75.

RML are a damn competetant team, it will be good to see that car against the Porsche but as I say the Porsche has a distinct advantage, being designed as is, the Lola has multiple options.

Of course in 07 we will see the Porsche run by small teams, but I think it will be the class of the field. The Radical is perhaps a more important car for the sport - being cut price effectivley GT2 money. Why have a GT when you can have a proto

[Dauer 962]

Originally Posted by JAG

If the Lola was run by Newman Hass, with Michlein tyres, and two professional drivers I can't see it being much slower.

Put the Porsche in the hands of a small, inexperienced team, with pay drivers, and watch them trail behind the Lolas and Radicals.

That’s exactly the point. A good example is LMES GT2 class. If you take a Porsche RSR and put some works drivers in it, you will win everything like GruppeM does. But if you have a look at the LMES with almost pay drivers in the cars, the RSR´s are not very strong ( as long as they are not teamed up by any Porsche works driver ).

[DanJR1]

hope Radical do go to le mans with an LMP1 one day. Kinda team you'd want to win!

[The Badger]

Ive been wanting a "factory" Courage win at Le Mans for years .....

[billnchristy]

So, I have to ask, what is the point of buying one then if you all are just going to doom them to mid pack regardless?

[jhansen]

Why would a small team buy a DP and go racing against Suntrust and Ganassi?

[MulsanneMike]

It would seem to be too early to make any ascertation as to how anyone will stack up against the RS Spyder. Though I must say that the car is very conservative aerodynamically and if I would hedge any bets, it would be that on the aeroside the Lola has an advantage. This isn't really based on anything other than perception. But I've been disturbed by one of the images Porsche released of their scale tunnel development. The image was on the RS Spyder site and shows the model in their traditional scale tunnel. It is not on a rolling road. It does have a section of rolling belt underneath the center of the car, but the wheels are not on a moving belt and therefore aren't realistically interacting with the car's overall aero. One time at Reynard we did a belt of and off test and with the belt off we saw something like 60% of the overall downforce that we saw with the belt on. So you're fooling yourself by testing without a full rolling road belt section as that duplicates the car's airflow characteristics more so that without it! Of course the speculation ratio (BS ratio, as I give myself an out!) here is high as I'm basing the entire car's aero potential on one picture, but I find details like that questionable. But it is in this area that I think the Lola has an advantage. Regardless of having said that, I don't think the Porsche's aero is bad. Far from it, developed by Norbert Singer and run the gambit of CFD, scale testing, full scale testing, it should be good. Just not great as the Lola's perhaps is (all relative). And as Sam said, the Porsche is an integrated package. Why would Porsche bother with their own transmission when you can buy an excellent off the shelf unit from Hewland, X-Trac, or Ricardo? Because you can contol all aspects of the transmission's design and integrate it into the rest of your package. And the entire car is designed with this mindset so it is well intergated with the fewest compromises.

[Javi]

A (may be) tricky question...
How big a part of a car success is the aerodynamics?? Compared, for example, to the engine power, driveability, fuel consumption,.... mechanical grip... reliablity. I really don´t know, I suppose there must be some compromise. I read somewhere that the Dallara had some aero advantages over the Audi in 2001, but it was never a match. because for other reasons. (engine related, I guess) ...
Porsche´s got a lot of experience, I do not think they´ll get things wrong...
Isn´t Norbert Singer retired?

[MulsanneMike]

The RS was Singer's last project and you're spot on, aero isn't everything. Sure it is a larger percentage than most, but if you got everything else well integrated and you're aero is "merely" good, than I'm sure you'll have a good/great car. Other cars fail because they are ok in most areas, poor in some, and only good in 1 if that.

[Javi]

Let´s play... (sorry, mods, if I am too far from topic)
As a designer, with a limited budget (even Porsche I suppose´s got one), would you invest in aero development? Would you concentrate on engine power? Track testing and reliability? Mechanical grip?
If you look at the last porsche´s victory at Le Mans, (98), It was won because it combined speed (altough not the fastest) with reliability, something the toyota did not have. You can think the same for years 94 (Dauer), and 87 (962). So, we may think that in recent years Porsche´s contenders have not beer the fastest, more aero advanced cars, but more consistent...

[jhansen]

I'd say aero is fairly important these days in my perception. Look at the Zytek 04S. That car started out with a very good aero package (is there a sportscar from the 675/900 era with more downforce?). While the development cycle was slow, they were eventually able to get good power, drivability, and in the end, some endurance. Just think how good that car could have been with a more intense development program initially?

But I suppose that could be said for a lot of cars. The Dallara LMP and the Cadillac LMP02 are two examples that come to mind. Which leaves me to suggest that money and time spent on development might be one of the highest priorities.

MulsanneMike, just out of curiousity, what design details of the B05/40 lead you to suggest that its aero is superior to the RS Spyder?

[archibold]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

hope Radical do go to le mans with an LMP1 one day. Kinda team you'd want to win!

Not if you have ever experienced their customer service as a customer...

[ss_collins]

On RS Spyder transmission, the 'box internals are not made by Porsche but an external supplier - however they were designed specifically for the Porsche and thus the Spyder is a fully integrated design. The casing is made by Porsche.

On the subject of LMP boxes Mike mentioned the Hewland, Xtrc and Ricardo, but omitted one very good box, the Pankl, which is dry sumped and gives an actual performance gain - Unusual for a 'box. I originally thought that this in fact was the RS Spyder 'box but it I now know it isn't.
You will be able to see this gearbox at the Autosport Engineering show in January, and the show issue of Racecar Engineering should have a feature another of the company's transmissions that is built to the same principles.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Excellent points about the RS Sypder ss_collins. That, in my opinion, is why a fully integrated car is always an attractive option. When you compare say the Audi R8 to other cars from that period you can see the difference. The attention to detail on the manufacturer developed cars is much stronger. I can see the RS Spyder being a very successful customer program for these reasons.

Maybe the smaller outfits like Lola, Radical and Courage should be a bit more bold. Design a more complete car. I understand that a car design that allows flexibility is attractive, but surely an integrated design is also attractive?

I agree entirely. Being able to produce a fully integrated package has often shown itself to be an advantage, in various forms of motor sport. I'm sure people like Lola and Radicals would like to follow that route someday, but I expect the cost and the resources are prohibitive at present.

I also agree with your belief that aero is one of the more important parts of the package these days and I'd certainly be looking at putting a good deal of investment in it if I were developing a car. I wouldn't be as concerned about engine power as you alays run the risk of being heavily restricted if it gets too good! (though obviously, you do need a good, driveable engine).

Finally, if the Radical is able to consistantly beat the Porsche, I'll be very surprised. Radicals have done a great job in recent years, and have come a long way, but I think beating Porsche (not least for the reasons above) is going to be a tall order.