[Race] Japanese Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

it's the truth

and also remember Alonso and Vandoorne actualy did BETTER last year with the Honda engine than this year with Renault(in qualifying AND the race)

I’m not sure how you measure better, but McLaren have double the points they managed last season and are significantly higher in the championships since the move to Renault. Toro Rossi have gone down. STR are lower than Force India despite FI giving up all their points.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

it's the truth

and also remember Alonso and Vandoorne actualy did BETTER last year with the Honda engine than this year with Renault(in qualifying AND the race)

2017, Alonso qualified 10th and finished 11th. This year he qualified 18th and finished 14th.

2017, Vandoorne qualified 11th and finished 14th. This year he qualified 19th and finished 15th

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I’m not sure how you measure better, but McLaren have double the points they managed last season and are significantly higher in the championships since the move to Renault. Toro Rossi have gone down. STR are lower than Force India despite FI giving up all their points.

They have had a lot more points but as the season has gone on they seem to be going backwards. Vandoorne is consistently in the bottom 5 all year. So perhaps they are at a point where they're slower than last year now. It's probably not the engine either, notice they're not blaming Renault anymore? How can you when RB are right on the tails of Mercedes. McLaren just built a sh-t car.



TR well last year when Hartley and Gasly came in they were on par with Sauber as the slowest team. Although they were quicker earlier in 2017. But they had a lot of grid penalties, reliability issues and 2 brand new drivers so hard to compare. I'd say up until Japan they're not much better this year at all, now battling with Williams instead of Sauber. Japan they certainly made a jump in qualifying but race pace wasn't so good, especially for Hartley. But he did pass the Williams', Alonso, and was faster than Ericsson but failed to pass, so at least at Japan with the Honda spec 3 perhaps TR have made a small gain. That doesn't mean the Honda is as good as the Renault yet though.

[bjohnsonsmith]

After today's GP, McLaren have 58 points. At the end of last season they had 30.

STR currently have 30 points and at the end of last season they had 53.

[TrapezeArtist]

I don't think the Renault engine is nearly as bad as many people think, even if it falls way short of Mercedes and Ferrari. Christian Horner and Max Verstappen have continuously been sticking the boot in at every opportunity. Last year Red Bull spat their dummies out and said the engine was going to be called a TAG-Heuer this year, yet they just continue to drone on about how they are being held back by "Renault".

Meanwhile Honda had three torrid seasons with McLaren, although towards the end it began to look as if the size-zero packaging was at least a contribution to the reliability problems. In the early Honda years they claimed they had the best chassis in F1 and were just hobbled by the Honda engine. This year it is obvious the McLaren chassis is a dog.

Honda have certainly made some progress (how could they fail, after 4 years of throwing money at it?) but I'm not sure how much. Toro Rosso made a big leap forward in Japanese qualifying, but historically Ferrari always do that at Monza too. Red Bull (both teams) have decided to throw their hat into the Honda ring and they're going to have to make the best of it. I'm so far unconvinced, but we'll see next year.

I think I'm right in saying that Renault reliability has been much better on non-Red Bulls this year, so it is possible that some of the Red Bull problems have been of their own making.

With Red Bull and Renault, I am somewhat reminded of the old saga of the DFV. When it won, it was a Ford. When it didn't, it was a Cosworth.

[S griffin]

I think Renault reliability has gone done with RBR since Renault had their own works team. It is probably why Ricciardo is moving there next season

[littleman]

Ferrari have made mistakes this year, but so too have Mercedes. Ferrari have a quick car, maybe the quickest at various points in the season, but their drivers have both failed to perform.

Vettel is quick but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to put a championship season together.OK, he succeeded at RBR but he did have a huge car advantage at that time.This time around Ferrari and Merc are evenly matched and Hamilton is proving the better man. Vettel appears very volatile under pressure and often panics precisely when a cool head is required.It's his major weakness and one his major rival doesn't suffer from.

Raikkonen has sometimes flattered in qualifying but been unimpressive come race day.

I think Ferrari should bite the bullet and get Alonso back on board for a couple of seasons.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by littleman

It's his major weakness and one his major rival doesn't suffer from.

Are you quite sure? Hamilton has a complete mental breakdown whenever he's not in front leading by 10 seconds! See Austria where he got picked off by Vettel who was the one who kept a cool head.

[littleman]

How many accidents has Hamilton had this season due to impetuous decisions and/or brainfade?

How many points has Vettel thrown away because of it?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I can name at least two off the top of my head, clashing with Verstappen in Bahrain and Vettel in Italy. Both times he got off the best, which is a common occurrence.

[littleman]

I'm not a huge fan of Hamilton but credit where credits due.

He hasn't dropped a single point due to driver error.

Vettel could be and should be less than 25 points behind with all to play for.
He's proving to be Ferrari's weak link.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I can name at least two off the top of my head, clashing with Verstappen in Bahrain and Vettel in Italy. Both times he got off the best, which is a common occurrence.

I think that most of us see you as viewing this through red-tinted specs.... Vettel may occasionally keep a cool head, but there's been little evidence of that in recent races.

[littleman]

Japan was a classic example of Vettel's innate ability to panic.

Why would you try to lunge past Verstappen, of all people, under minimal braking for Spoon Curve?

All Vettel had to do was wait until they got onto the start/finish straight and sail past using DRS.

Everybody knows a Ferrari,particularly with DRS, will destroy a Red Bull/Renault in a straight line. Apparently Vettel doesn't.

[S griffin]

Vettel panics too much when things don’t go his way. Still he’s not the only multiple world champion to be flaky under pressuee. Schumacher was always susceptible to that

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'm trying to remember, if Vettel was like this when he was with RBR, panicking and making these rash judgments; we've seen it several times the year and I think it has cost him the WDC.

[Casper]

So who is going to win the WDC in 2019

[Kempi]

He was and he was not. Example for not: Brazil 2012 when he got squeezed by Webber and spun by someone else. He calmly rolled backwards, waited for everyone to go by and then turned around and made a good recovery drive.

Example for he was: Canada in 2011 (?) when he got hunted down by Button in changing conditions and lost it in the second to last lap.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by jimclark

'Reminds me.... There was this top team once....McLaren I think it was called....and this guy....I think his name was Ron.......

I won't mention the real guy and his arse kicking Bruce (ooopppsss, I just did) and Denny show.....

Are yes the Bruce & Denny Show! simpler times back then I loved the 60's!

Ron once was quoted as saying It wasn't his job to train drivers!...then he attended a kids go kart race as a quest to award the winners trophy...Lewis Hamilton was the little guys name...There you go...well done Ronald!

[Rennen]

Part of the problem at Ferrari is Italian politics! There's more to the current situation than meets the eye!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Kempi

He was and he was not. Example for not: Brazil 2012 when he got squeezed by Webber and spun by someone else. He calmly rolled backwards, waited for everyone to go by and then turned around and made a good recovery drive.

Example for he was: Canada in 2011 (?) when he got hunted down by Button in changing conditions and lost it in the second to last lap.

I just watched a highlights compilation of the 2011 Canadian GP and I wouldn't say Vettel panicked like he has done recently. More like he plain misjudged the corner, due to a combination of Button putting on the pressure and very tricky conditions.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by littleman

I'm not a huge fan of Hamilton but credit where credits due.

He hasn't dropped a single point due to driver error.

Vettel could be and should be less than 25 points behind with all to play for.
He's proving to be Ferrari's weak link.

I have been able to view Lewis from the age of 8 when he started junior karting...He was the 'chosen one' from the junior karting pack and has done the best with that 'SILVER' opportunity...and has developed into something VERY, VERY special!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm trying to remember, if Vettel was like this when he was with RBR, panicking and making these rash judgments; we've seen it several times the year and I think it has cost him the WDC.

Turkey 2010, with Webber. Multi 21 in Malaysia 2013, with Webber.

There's just two rash decisions - both precipitated by being put under pressure, just by a teammate rather than a rival. Granted, not in a red car, but his history of rash decisions started in an RBR.

[steve_r]

It's funny, I was having a conversation with a work colleague today, and we both thought that Vettel performances over the last two seasons have somewhat tarnished his reputation. For me, he was so brilliant in the Red Bull era that comparisons with Schumacher were probably not unreasonable at the time.

He should be within touch of Hamilton, as he should have been last season. One Mercedes DNF should be enough for him to be back in with a realistic chance of the title. Instead, he is looking at another season where it has slipped away, largely due to the increasingly long list of his own errors.

I am being harsh of course. He has still thoroughly out performed his teammate. He has still won races. He has still won multiple WDCs. It's just that he maybe should have won more. Is ranking him alongside Alonso instead of Senna and Schumacher that bad at the end of the day?

Maybe he will turn it around next season.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm trying to remember, if Vettel was like this when he was with RBR, panicking and making these rash judgments; we've seen it several times the year and I think it has cost him the WDC.

I seem to recall that he displayed similar tendencies when dicing with Webber when they were both at RBR.

P.S. Sorry, I see Greem has already responded along the same lines.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Greem

Turkey 2010, with Webber. Multi 21 in Malaysia 2013, with Webber.

There's just two rash decisions - both precipitated by being put under pressure, just by a teammate rather than a rival. Granted, not in a red car, but his history of rash decisions started in an RBR.

Malaysia was not really rash. He just ignored a team order. Not under any pressure either, weird way to look at it. Turkey is mostly the same, in both cases he was the one applying the pressure to his teammate because he was faster.

I would rather suggest Belgium 2010 when he failed at overtaking Button.